26-04-2002 20:59									#91
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun So then you despise pedophiles when they pratice their freedom of speech, but not act upon it. But you do not despise Ku Klux Klan members when they pratice their freedom of speech, but do not act out any violence towards blacks??

I think the KKK is on par with the Black Panthers(I'm sure che will write me a paper about why they are really good guys),nation of islam, nazies in general, and anyone who spreads ignorance and hate.

However, (I'll say this one more time) I think pedophiles are much worse than the groups that I mentioned above. And I support anything that limits their ability to organize in anyway what so ever. You can make this as being anti gay or anti-minority if you want to MR Fun. But my views are really simple on the matter.

	27-04-2002 00:32									#92
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So (trying to change the subject again) if both man/boy and man/girl relationships are so equally reviled why is there no man/girl love association? Why, in the case of the Catholic Church scandals, do so many pedophelia victims seem to be along the lines of man/boy? Or has my outlook been skewed by the liberal media?

	27-04-2002 01:18									#93
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Everyone needs to shed their contemporary bias and look at NAMBLA impartially. Of course we think they are sick ****s, but how would our grandparents view homosexual organizations (if there were any) 50 years ago or more? They would say "those sick faggot ****s deserve to die, no one should be allowed to engage in sick criminal sodomy."

Remember that sodomy was once a very frowned upon thing and term, now it is pretty normal. There is no real difference between this change in societies' view on sex and the change that is advocated by NAMBLA.

One issue of course that people has is that the sexual freedom advocated by NAMBLA is with minors. While I don't advocate sex with children at all, and I think it is a sick practice (I kinda get quesy thinking about adult men screwing each other too), but in a free society who is the government to tell people what to do with their bodies?

The opposing argument of course is that minors can't consent to anything, they have empty minds that can't grasp rational decisions. Well this is pure BS. I don't know what kind of idiots you all were, but I didn't walk around in a gray fog for the first 18 years of my life. I knew damn well what I was doing and could make very educated decisions. I first had sex at 14, and I guess my first "sexual encounter" was around 10 or so. Maybe even before that I'd go to neighborhood kids and say "i'll show you mine if you show me yours" it was curiousity, and my thoughts at 9 are no different than my thoughts now.

	27-04-2002 01:36									#94
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Your ignorance is amazing Ozzy.

You seriously think a 14 year old can make this kind of decision??? Maybe you think you could at that age, but does that mean all can? Of course not.

This is even worse than your campaign for a younger voting age.

	27-04-2002 01:47									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia You seriously think a 14 year old can make this kind of decision??? Maybe you think you could at that age, but does that mean all can? Of course not.

I absolutely do. Do you actually know any 14 year olds? You don't know what you are talking about, you are only repeating the entrenched prejudices you have been fed you entire adult life. In many states 14 year olds are allowed to legally marry. I would think that marriage is a larger decision than just sex. Why then is sex a stricter standard than marriage?

Also as we speak there are thousands of 14 year olds having sex all across the country. This is not some new growth of hethanistic satanism, this is how things have been for decades. If you want to look at human history people have been having sex at much younger ages since the beginning of time. Surely you don't believe that young people as as a demographic have GOTTEN DUMBER since the stone age, do you?

If you believe that it is clear your arguments stand on no reasonings, just a pile of hatred and prejudice.

	27-04-2002 02:04									#96
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quote: my thoughts at 9 are no different than my thoughts now.

Hmm. Can't say the same for myself. I've matured *just a bit* since I was 9.

Sure, the age of consent is arbitrary, but you have to draw the line somewhere. It's pretty easy for an adult (lets say age 25) to take advantage of a minor (lets say 16).

-Arrian

p.s. I personally feel there is a big difference between my 25/16 example and two 16 yr-olds having sex. Just my $.02

	27-04-2002 02:06									#97
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Do you actually know any 14 year olds?

I was one once, and I knew many my age.

quote: You don't know what you are talking about, you are only repeating the entrenched prejudices you have been fed you entire adult life. In many states 14 year olds are allowed to legally marry. I would think that marriage is a larger decision than just sex. Why then is sex a stricter standard than marriage? Also as we speak there are thousands of 14 year olds having sex all across the country. This is not some new growth of hethanistic satanism, this is how things have been for decades. If you want to look at human history people have been having sex at much younger ages since the beginning of time. Surely you don't believe that young people as as a demographic have GOTTEN DUMBER since the stone age, do you? If you believe that it is clear your arguments stand on no reasonings, just a pile of hatred and prejudice.

You really are a crazy loon arent you!

The fact is that life experience teaches you things that cannot be learned any other way. Things you have yet to learn I see.

	27-04-2002 02:09									#98
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I don't think it is all that easy for a 25 year old to take advantage of a 16 year old. That 16 year old can evaluate the worth of the 25 year old just as much as a fellow 16 year old. Why is 16/16 ok and 16/25 not ok? If a 16-year-old can consent to sex with someone her own age, does her reasoning ability suddenly disappear when faced with someone 9 years older? My parents are 8 years apart, should they be jailed for it?

Heck look at Anna Nicole Smith, she was a Playboy model in her 20s (I believe) who married an 80 year old millionare. (maybe billionare) That is an extreme, almost grotesque age difference, but 60 years difference is ok, 9 years, or even 2 years, isn't according to our law.

	27-04-2002 02:15									#99
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Ozzy,

I was not discussing age difference between couples (my parents are seperated by 22.5 years) in general. There is a HUGE difference between the 10 years between 30 and 40 and the 10 years between 15 and 25. You can't see that?

-Arrian

	27-04-2002 02:23									#100
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No I don't see that. And if you see that then you don't truly know any 15 year olds and 25 year olds. There is a great deal of prejudice that hits ones mind when they hear "15 year old" they don't actually perceive reality, they perceive their own skewed stereotypes. I am right between the two numbers and I know people at both, and judging their reasoning ability I find no discernable difference.

Granted the longer someone is around the most information they accumulate. I'm not saying that experience doesn't exist, surely it does. But if a 15 year old is given the same amount of information as a 25 year old or a 35 year old their decisions will be just as rational. Strangely rather than trying to provide more information to young people so they can make better decisions the trend is to deny them information and shelter them "for their own good" all this does is perpetuate the ignorant stereotypes about young people.

	27-04-2002 03:07									#101
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP . But if a 15 year old is given the same amount of information as a 25 year old or a 35 year old their decisions will be just as rational.

A couple of points on this statement, 1st a 15 year old does not have the experience in life to make the same rational decisions as a 25 or 30 year old, the wisdom as to the workings of the world are just not there yet... I was 15 once so I know this to be true. Secondly it is widely accepted in the psychological community that pedophiles are socially inept and that something has stunted their growth relationship wise. Therefore they desire relations with a person much younger, because this portion of their persona is very immature. Sexually they have the brains of 15 year olds, but in other respects they are much older and wiser to the workings of the world. This allows them to take advantage, and results in them acting in the disgusting manner that they do.

I don't understand why many of the people on this post continue to try to rationalize the existance of NAMBLA. this thought alone makes me want to throw up.

	27-04-2002 03:10									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Hmm. Can't say the same for myself. I've matured *just a bit* since I was 9.

:looks up from playing with transformers: What? No honey, I'm busy you put the kids to bed! :goes back to playing with transformers:

quote: I don't think it is all that easy for a 25 year old to take advantage of a 16 year old. That 16 year old can evaluate the worth of the 25 year old just as much as a fellow 16 year old.

Me thinks you think this only because your 16, no?

quote: If you want to look at human history people have been having sex at much younger ages since the beginning of time. Surely you don't believe that young people as as a demographic have GOTTEN DUMBER since the stone age, do you?

Though I believe you are incorrect about people having sex at a younger age since the stone age, I still don't see the correalation between this and being dumber or smarter.

quote: There is a great deal of prejudice that hits ones mind when they hear "15 year old" they don't actually perceive reality, they perceive their own skewed stereotypes. I am right between the two numbers and I know people at both, and judging their reasoning ability I find no discernable difference.

Then one of two things are at play here: Your poor judgement of people's ability to reason, or that you know 25 year olds with the mental capacity of 15 year olds.

quote: Granted the longer someone is around the most information they accumulate. I'm not saying that experience doesn't exist, surely it does. But if a 15 year old is given the same amount of information as a 25 year old or a 35 year old their decisions will be just as rational.

The point is you can't just bless someone with this information or experience, but given your lack of experience I can see why you'd think this.

	27-04-2002 03:43									#103
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Well teens are probably having sex earlier because they've been reaching puberty earlier in the past 100 years. Science can't explain why, either. Could be hormones in the food or anything.

NAMBLA or not, the Net created a fool's paradise for these deviants. The equivalent of a printing press in every home is being brought to bear in ways we didn't imagine, unfortunately.



Dave

	27-04-2002 03:51									#104
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I think I will put Ozzy on the same level of Boddington and Wiglaf.

	27-04-2002 03:55									#105
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP If you want to look at human history people have been having sex at much younger ages since the beginning of time.

I fail to see how you can possibly substantiate this claim.

	27-04-2002 04:06									#106
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I suspect he has confused the ability to produce children with the capacity to have intercourse.

That, or Cromagnon man's first stiffy was well into his 50's, if he even lived that long.

It would certainly give new meaning to the phrase F**k and Die.

	27-04-2002 04:14									#107
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10 years between 15 and 25 represents 2/3 of the lifetime of the 15 year old.
10 years between 30 and 40 represents 1/3 of the lifetime of the 30 year old.

	27-04-2002 04:16									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber I think the KKK is on par with the Black Panthers(I'm sure che will write me a paper about why they are really good guys),nation of islam, nazies in general, and anyone who spreads ignorance and hate. However, (I'll say this one more time) I think pedophiles are much worse than the groups that I mentioned above. And I support anything that limits their ability to organize in anyway what so ever. You can make this as being anti gay or anti-minority if you want to MR Fun. But my views are really simple on the matter.

Whoa --- get off your high horse, Sprayber.

I oppose active pedophilia. I also do not see any correlation between sexual orientation and pedophilia activity, so I have never seen anti-pedophilia values as anti-gay.

I was not offended by you at all, I just wanted to participate in this on-going argument in a civil manner.

I'm just saying, that where do you draw the line once you deny one group of people free speech, and allow it for every other group??

	27-04-2002 04:19									#109
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP I am right between the two numbers and I know people at both, and judging their reasoning ability I find no discernable difference.

Would you honestly say that you haven't matured at all in the past five years? If in fact you believe that you have matured in the past five years, then how can you claim that 15-year-olds and 25-year-olds are mentally and emotionally equivalent?

	27-04-2002 04:25									#110
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quote: But my views are really simple on the matter.

Yep, authoritarian.

	27-04-2002 05:33									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber It's a matter of degrees KH. One can say we should be able to smoke pot all you want to. I don't care. Usually I'm not for banning any group, but I'd loose no sleep over this one being banned or watched every minute of the day. Sorry if that disturbs anyone's sense of Constitutional justice. But when the choice comes down between the constitution and someone's child, which do you think is going to win.

If I say I think it should be legal to kill women then I should be arrested, even though I don't support killing killing women until the law gets changed, and have never killed a woman?

Same with abortion rights. Many people view it as murder, so it would be okay to get laws passed saying that not only is abortion illegal, but so is speech advocating its legalisation? Freedom of political speech cannot be abridged without resigning ourselves to a dictatorship, since now we can't even discuss changing the laws. No speech advocating or opposing the peaceful and legal change of laws should be restricted.

	27-04-2002 05:35									#112
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Oh, and Sprayber: should Ozzy now be arrested for advocating a change in laws?

	27-04-2002 06:17									#113
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger I fail to see how you can possibly substantiate this claim.

I can in several ways. First look at most non-westernized cultures. (not that there are a whole lot that haven't been corrupted by us) In these cultures people are married and start raising families in their teens.

Even in our own western history it was extremely common for 14 or 15 year olds (and even younger) to get married and start having children. This is only in the last 200 years or so.

And just think about it logically, now people live much longer than they did at any time in human history. Do you think people with an average life span of 35 are going to wait until they are over 20 to start raising a family? Heck no! Everything used to be younger, its only in the past hundred years or so that young people began to be coddled to a sickening degree thus loosing their previous autonomy.

In Native American culutures, and other tribal cultures before they were destroyed or corrupted by westerners they had a right of passage that coincided with puberty. Once you hit puberty and complete the rite of passage you are a full member of the tribe with all the rights and priveldges of any adult member. Puberty of course occurs at 10 to 13.

So young people having sex has an incredibly long precedent, it is just our modern anti-youth hysteria that has demonized this common practice among humanity.

	27-04-2002 06:23									#114
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants Me thinks you think this only because your 16, no? The point is you can't just bless someone with this information or experience, but given your lack of experience I can see why you'd think this.

Ah yes of course, rather than listen to my reasoned arguments you just make a claim that I am young and thus my arguments don't count for a damn thing, right?

This is why fighting for equal rights is such a terribly difficult thing to do.

Suffrigist, "Women are intelligent rational people and deserve the right to vote."

Anti-Suffrigist, "Ha ha, of course you'd think that, you are a dumb woman, what do you know! ha ha ha"

Me, "Youth are intelligent rational people and deserve the right to vote."
WhiteElephants, "Ha ha, of course you'd think that, you are a dumb kid, what do you know! ha ha ha"

	27-04-2002 06:36									#115
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP WhiteElephants, "Ha ha, of course you'd think that, you are a dumb kid, what do you know! ha ha ha"

Well junior, the proof is in the pudding, as they say.

And when you're done pining for equal rights, you can start pining for equal responsibility as well, k?

	27-04-2002 06:38									#116
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Ah yes of course, rather than listen to my reasoned arguments you just make a claim that I am young and thus my arguments don't count for a damn thing, right?

I did listen to your arguement bub, and it's far from reasoned.

	27-04-2002 06:43									#117
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants Well junior, the proof is in the pudding, as they say. b: And when you're done pining for equal rights, you can start pining for equal responsibility as well, k?

Ah yes equal responsibility.....

You mean like having to go to war at 18 but not being able to drink a beer till 21 or run for president till 35?

You mean being taxed at 14 but not being able to vote on those taxes till you are 18?

You mean being tried as an adult in court at 13 but not being able to serve on a jury till you are 18?

Yea, I am the greedy one who wants all the good and none of the bad. Suuurre. Perhaps your senility has deteriorated your brain grandpa, you sure don't seem to be talking out of any rational conception of reality. Living in your own world perhaps?

	27-04-2002 06:46									#118
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP And if you see that then you don't truly know any 15 year olds and 25 year olds. There is a great deal of prejudice that hits ones mind when they hear "15 year old" they don't actually perceive reality, they perceive their own skewed stereotypes. I am right between the two numbers and I know people at both, and judging their reasoning ability I find no discernable difference.

It's not that we don't truly know 15 year olds, as we were one, and spent many hours surrounded by other 15 year olds, its that you don't truly know anyone 25+.

	27-04-2002 06:49									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber I think the KKK is on par with the Black Panthers(I'm sure che will write me a paper about why they are really good guys),nation of islam, nazies in general, and anyone who spreads ignorance and hate. However, (I'll say this one more time) I think pedophiles are much worse than the groups that I mentioned above. And I support anything that limits their ability to organize in anyway what so ever. You can make this as being anti gay or anti-minority if you want to MR Fun. But my views are really simple on the matter.

Sprayber, I have agreed with everything that you have posted on this thread. Its odd to me that people can justify their rights, just as it is odd to me that people don't hold the KKK and the Black Panthers on the same level.

	27-04-2002 06:55									#120
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP But if a 15 year old is given the same amount of information as a 25 year old or a 35 year old their decisions will be just as rational.

Wow. That is one of the stupidest things that I have ever read. Wait five years and re-evaluate that statement. The majority of 15 year old don't even have a sense of self identity that is separate from their parents yet. Some 25 year olds may be on a 15 year old emotional level, but very few. Look at it this way: a 25 year old has possible finished grad school. A 15 year old is a sophomore in high school. I don't care how smart you think you are, your ability to reason is not as developed at 15 as it will be at 25. ou remind me of myself 4 or 5 years ago, and I'll give you the advice that I wish I could go back and give to myself: Grow up. 15 year olds are not adults.