03-05-2002 01:45									#271
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quote: Sure. If those opinions based on real facts, but not on propaganda too.

My opinions ARE based on facts I've reiterated several times.

quote: Like Vietnam right?

First off, we had a massive kill-loss ratio in Vietnam. We withdrew because of internal politics, not military defeat.

quote: I'm saing that it gave them nothing.

Except a victory, and throwing the Russians out of Wallachia certainly did something.

	03-05-2002 01:46									#272
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Actually the initial landing force was outnumbered, and I'd say German armor was superior to Allied armor. Their 88s were nothing to sneeze at either.

It's because there was nothing more worse then coffin with wheels you are calling the Sherman.

quote: No, although at the time of Operation Typhoon the Soviets had more Western tanks than Soviet tanks on the front.

Interesting, considering that in 1941 SU had about 24 000 tanks of Soviet design, while US army had only about 900 tanks overall. How all those western tanks were delivered in SU and where you get such amount of tanks?

	03-05-2002 01:47									#273
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well you didn't exactly capture Afganistan either
You just bombed it and the whole world was behind you and supporting you. (meaning the Taliban were all alone and without the help of a superpower like when they were fighintng USSR)

	03-05-2002 02:00									#274
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quote: The Germans beat the **** out of you in WW1. In WW2, they would have, except for American Lend Lease.

And many, many other factors. It's totally naive to think that the aid programme was the sole reason for the Soviet victory.

	03-05-2002 02:04									#275
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 well you didn't exactly capture Afganistan either

We still won and have so far avoided the fates of the British and Russians.

	03-05-2002 02:08									#276
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc We still won and have so far avoided the fates of the British and Russians.

You didn't capture it though. You didn't even try.

	03-05-2002 02:08									#277
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Well, since I WAY overshot this topic, I'll just go ahead and agree with everything and anything that everyone and anyone who has posted or thought about posting in this thread.

	03-05-2002 02:08									#278
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Stop trolling, Herr Paiktis.

	03-05-2002 02:09									#279
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd First off, we had a massive kill-loss ratio in Vietnam. We withdrew because of internal politics, not military defeat.

It’s absolutely the same situation as Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan.

	03-05-2002 02:09									#280
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun First -- China's government is really not communist. Second -- China is certainly not a backwater nation. The United States has acknowledged China's immense importance, and its position in Asia. This why American leaders kow-tow to China by ignoring their human rights violations --- the other reason, is economic interests.

Mr. Fun, I think if it were not for the Mid East and Osama, the major focus of U.S. policy would be to fix China. What China needs is to allow true democracy, and allow the people of Taiwan full and equal integration into that democracy.

Thinking that China can ever be really powerful economically without democracy is just wishful thinking.

I am not an expert on the fall of communism in Russia. However, it does appear that the courage of a few individuals in standing up to the communists was critical, including Yeltsin, the Pope and Walesa. Thus I fully agree that the U.S. should support freedom of speech in China and defend those who are willing to oppose communism.

I totally admire anyone who in a totalitarian country is willing to take a stand for truth and freedom!

Ned

	03-05-2002 02:12									#281
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Stop trolling, Herr Paiktis.

Truth is not a troll.

	03-05-2002 02:13									#282
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Seems americans are kicking in Afganistan, but imo it's not over yet... no sir, not until the fat lady sings.

Just a reminder so you won't forget, as you fall asleep, you will see a dream. It's not a nightmare, it's a pleasant dream. It's about a beautiful place.. you're sitting in a lake with a beautiful blond chick. You've just come out of refreshing sauna and you are been served a nice drink.. you feel like the king of the world.. Someone calls to your Nokia, just to let you know that you are special and loved.. everything is in harmony and peace, and birds are singing.. the last thing you remember when you wake up is some kind of picture.. you are not sure what it is but it's white with a blue cross on it, and you know that's the key!

	03-05-2002 02:14									#283
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I am not an expert on the fall of communism in Russia. However, it does appear that the courage of a few individuals in standing up to the communists was critical, including Yeltsin, the Pope and Walesa.

Yeltsin is not a fearless individual, he is a brainless individual. It's a big difference.

	03-05-2002 02:15									#284
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 You didn't capture it though. You didn't even try.

Why would we want direct control over the country? They don't have anything we want. I don't even know exactly why the Soviets invaded.

	03-05-2002 02:18									#285
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why would we want direct control over the country? They don't have anything we want. I don't even know exactly why the Soviets invaded.

That's all good and fine. But you still didn't capture it.

	03-05-2002 02:19									#286
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 That's all good and fine. But you still didn't capture it.

Why would we want direct control over the country? They don't have anything we want.

	03-05-2002 02:20									#287
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BTW I think they do have something you want. The passage of oil pipes.

That is why you sacrificed 2.000 plus civilian lives when given the slightest excuse to do so

	03-05-2002 02:20									#288
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why would we want direct control over the country? They don't have anything we want.

Why do you repeat yourself?

You did not capture it. That's a fact. You did not even try.

	03-05-2002 02:21									#289
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David, and other Americans, et al., We never could have won militarily in Vietnam given the strategy were were pursuing. We had to take out the North. But to do that without having China on our side was impossible due to the more than likely intervention of the Chinese, ala Korea.

So "we" lost Vietnam, in truth, when we "lost" China.

Vietnam was a gigantic mistake.

Ned

	03-05-2002 02:23									#290
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 BTW I think they do have something you want. The passage of oil pipes.

There are other routes for oil pipes.

quote: You did not capture it. That's a fact. You did not even try.

Why would we want direct control over the country? They don't have anything we want.

	03-05-2002 02:24									#291
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc There are other routes for oil pipes.

Not really.

quote: Why would we want direct control over the country? They don't have anything we want.

Do you have a screw fall out of your head? Please pick it up. This is getting ridiculous.

And again. You did not capture it. You didn't even try.

	03-05-2002 02:27									#292
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Not really.

Yes, there are.

quote: Do you have a screw fall out of your head? Please pick it up. This is getting ridiculous.

You still haven't given an adequate answer to the question though.

quote: And again. You did not capture it. You didn't even try.

Why would we want direct control over the country? They don't have anything we want.

	03-05-2002 02:29									#293
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quote: Why would we want direct control over the country? They don't have anything we want.

DinoDoc, you sound like a broken recorder.
May be you better enlighten us what do you want, instead of repeating one phrase many times.

	03-05-2002 02:30									#294
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Not really. Yes, there are.

Not really.

quote: You still haven't given an adequate answer to the question though.

You still haven't accepted the fact that you did not capture it.

quote: Why would we want direct control over the country? They don't have anything we want.

You did not capture it. You didn't even try.

After Vietnam, I think you did the right choice not to try or you would have failed even without having any opponent except a third world people.

	03-05-2002 02:32									#295
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Seems americans are kicking in Afganistan, but imo it's not over yet... no sir, not until the fat lady sings. Just a reminder so you won't forget, as you fall asleep, you will see a dream. It's not a nightmare, it's a pleasant dream. It's about a beautiful place.. you're sitting in a lake with a beautiful blond chick. You've just come out of refreshing sauna and you are been served a nice drink.. you feel like the king of the world.. Someone calls to your Nokia, just to let you know that you are special and loved.. everything is in harmony and peace, and birds are singing.. the last thing you remember when you wake up is some kind of picture.. you are not sure what it is but it's white with a blue cross on it, and you know that's the key!

White with blue cross? Are you trying to say, blue with white cross? The Greek Flag?

Ned

	03-05-2002 02:32									#296
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quote: Originally posted by Serb DinoDoc, you sound like a broken recorder.

Yes, its starting to annoy me that the question needs to be asked so many times before the hairy Greek answers it.

quote: May be you better enlighten us what do you want, instead of repeating one phrase many times.

Something that would justify the cost that a war of conquest along the lines of that the Russians launched would entail.

	03-05-2002 02:34									#297
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Not really.

Yes, there are.

quote: You still haven't accepted the fact that you did not capture it.

Why would we want to capture it?

	03-05-2002 02:35									#298
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Yes, its starting to annoy me that the question needs to be asked so many times before the hairy Greek answers it.

Thank you for your racial slur. Typical american racism, product of a specific "culture".

You still haven't accepted the fact that you did not capture it. That you did not even try.

	03-05-2002 02:39									#299
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Yes, there are.

No they are not. The american pendagon even had a plan to bomb Afganistan so to let the oil pipes come through long before Osama blew you out of the sky.
You sacrificed thousands of civilian lifes for oil. And it is not the first time.

quote: Why would we want to capture it?

There is a fact. That you did not capture Afganistan and that you did not even try. This does not justify you feeling more "powerful" than others and it is not something to gloat about in any case.

You always chose smaller people to bully but when it comes to the big players you always run like cowards

	03-05-2002 02:51									#300
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serb,

quote: It's because there was nothing more worse then coffin with wheels you are calling the Sherman.

Point taken. Relevance not understood.

quote: Interesting, considering that in 1941 SU had about 24 000 tanks of Soviet design, while US army had only about 900 tanks overall. How all those western tanks were delivered in SU and where you get such amount of tanks?

Most of those 24,000 were destroyed in the battles of annihilation (Kiev, Vyazma, etc.). Further, the US produced many more, and further, the Brits sent Lend Lease too.

quote: It’s absolutely the same situation as Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan.

I know. That's why I didn't say Afghanistan, Ned did.

sandman,

quote: And many, many other factors. It's totally naive to think that the aid programme was the sole reason for the Soviet victory.

The Soviets survived because of the West.