03-05-2002 02:52									#301
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Paiktis22, As you correctly observe, the U.S. "selectively" intervenes in local affairs of other countries to protect its interests. In the case of Afghanistan, we would have let it continue in civil war indefinitely - but Osama bin Laden forced our hand. Our intervention had nothing whatsoever to do with oil.

Ned

	03-05-2002 02:52									#302
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That's all I'm saying.

I can't remember any american victory anywhere.

Even in WW2 the ones who took the bulk of the fight and saved Europe from the Nazis were again the Russians. (of course they were just fighting their enemy, but in their free time they saved Europe too).

It is high time you get off your high horse. Your "antipathy" towards people like Russians or French, just because you have conflicting interests, makes you look repulsive.

Russians and French have a history you can not ever hope to match.

Instead of getting involved in a piss fight and show how small hearted and insecure you are, it would be better to start reading some non american newspapers.

I have never seen people more brainwashed than some Americans here.

To condemn others of being brainwashed, others whose accomplishments over the centuries overpass yours by light years is one of the most ironic things I have ever encountered.

But, hey, it's just me and according to you I'm an anti-american (one of the billions really)

	03-05-2002 04:04									#303
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"Not a chance.
We are Orthodox people since 988, if I remember the date correctly. Any attempt of Alexander or any other tsar to convert country to Catholicism would end as a religious war.

Doubt that. You, Russians, have or at least had up till revolution no tradition of defending own beliefs, just to obey tzar. Of course some would rebel, but I doubt they would gain any significant power. Peter I could do with You what he wanted. Alexander would be able to do it too.

"No matter, it?s the same.

It's your big problem, Serb, and that's why Apolyton com
munists should hate You. You are representing "odchylenie prawicowo-nacjonalistyczne wewnatrz komunizmu", You are uniting communism and nationalism, and that's really bad thing to do. Anyway, such thinking, that Russia and USSR is the same, was one of the factors that destroyed USSR.

"Readiness to sacrifice your life for your country is the part of military spirit as I see it.

They weren't ready for that. They were forced to do that. Anyway Wlasow was also willing to sacrifice his life for his Russia.

" The Mir was a space station not a cake. If you can still use an old tool for your missions, then why you should spent huge amount of money and build new tools?
Americans still using WWII Iowa- class battleships in their navy. So what, they are eating a decayed cake?

Yes, if they use it in battle though it's falling apart and dangerous for human beings.

" *Waiting for Luke?s-like Mongol who will apology that Mongols didn?t destroyed an unintelligent, militaristic Russian civilization and let them grow.*


It's You who is now saying that You are worse then Mongols. You are better - a bit


" Of course they wanted to crush revolution, but they signed the pact by which Russia was divided between them on zones of interests.

Now I can believe in THAT though I'm not so sure, still; notice, to partage a state and to divide it into spheres of interests is sth different.

"No.
Chechnya is part of Russia. Show me one UN resolution were it is said that Chechnya is an independent state/ was an independent state/ have right to be an independent state.

You know very well that UN won't support
anyone against major powers.

"If tomorrow part of Krakow?s population decide to be an independent state and will declare war against Poland, would you support those people in their war?

Tchechenians are in their own land, in which they have lived - before Russians came there. You cannot compare it to any part of Poland. We lost all that we could in the east, and are autochtons to the west,
Anyway Russia is a FEDERATION

"Exactly.
The attack on Dagestan was a break of limits for us. Those terrorists started the second war, not we are. And they lost this war.

Those wasn't an action of Tchechenian gouverment.

"On Russian or any other Slav?s language the Slav?s people are called ?Slavyane? I guess it?s originated from word ?slava? which means ?glory? and ?slavyane? means- ?glorious people?.

That's the theory of Mickiewicz in fact

"Come and get us if you are so strong and brave.
Germans, Brits or French already tried this and every time they thought that our military is a crap and that it could be easily destroyed. Every time they ended beaten by this ?crap? army and running from our country like a beaten dog.

Again, when it comes to Russian military, it usually doesn't have anything to do with skill, but number.

"Who told you that I think that Soviet invasion in Finland was Ok?
I've never said this.

In fact You did. You showed us them as one of the interveniants. In another words, they were rebelled province of yours that You had right to anect, just like Tchechenia.

"quote:
<http://apolyton.net/b.gif>
The Poles threw you out in the 1920s.
<http://apolyton.net/b.gif>

1939.

Again I dare to ask You to remember what I wrote; Polish army had orders not to fight with You. In fact my grandma told me that major of her city, the first one to be occupied by You, went out with bred and salt to You because he thought You wish to help us fighting the nazis. He was wrong,
You were allies of nazis at this time.

	03-05-2002 04:29									#304
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Forgotten about one thing. Serb. If You feel so bad about Jecyn, why do You like Putin, he's chosen one...? After all such a bad guy coudn't
do anything right, especially choose a good
prime minister and next president. Or didn't
he choose Putin but Putin forced him to resign? If so, is Russia democracy or sth else?

	03-05-2002 04:30									#305
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 That's all I'm saying. I can't remember any american victory anywhere. Even in WW2 the ones who took the bulk of the fight and saved Europe from the Nazis were again the Russians. (of course they were just fighting their enemy, but in their free time they saved Europe too). It is high time you get off your high horse. Your "antipathy" towards people like Russians or French, just because you have conflicting interests, makes you look repulsive. Russians and French have a history you can not ever hope to match. Instead of getting involved in a piss fight and show how small hearted and insecure you are, it would be better to start reading some non american newspapers. I have never seen people more brainwashed than some Americans here. To condemn others of being brainwashed, others whose accomplishments over the centuries overpass yours by light years is one of the most ironic things I have ever encountered. But, hey, it's just me and according to you I'm an anti-american (one of the billions really)

I don't think even the Russians believe they could have won WWII without American intervention. We certainly "helped."

As to history, the U.S. beat Mexico and took California. We beat Spain and liberated Cuba, Puerto Rico and the Philipines.

We virtually single-handedly beat Japan and freed China, Korea and all of SE Asia.

Desert Storm was an American victory. Kuwait is free.

I hope that next war in Iraq results in the liberation of Kurdistan.

America has been a tremedous force for freedom in the world. We don't put down the history of the French or the Russians. We highly appreciated the French support during our own war for independence. We have returned the favor twice in this century. The Russians and Americans are natural allies. When we act together, the world is a better place.

I suspect Greek antipathy to the U.S. is tied closely to the fact that Turkey and the U.S. are so close. Isn't this right?

Ned

	03-05-2002 05:00									#306
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Just a couple of things,
Firstly I'd like like to nominate Britain as the number one World power as we're the only only ones to have won our crappy war.
The Americans lost in vietnam and the lost Russians in Afganistan.We beat the argies in the Faulklands.
I'm not counting the current "war" in Afganistan because it hasn't been won yet or Iraq because it wasn't a war it was a weapons test. If I've missed any out please say, I dont pretend this list is egstaustive just the ones that spring to mind.
Secondly a few people have been saying the only way the russians won wars was through weight of numbers. And ? It isn't the method that counts just the result.
Finally why does China have to become a democracy to be world power, Thats what ended Russia's reign as one. Democracy isn't the be-all and end all. America isn't the world super-power because its a democracy, its because it was in the right place at the right time to take advantage of the fall of the British Empire and WW2.
Theres my tupence worth, Thank you and goodnight.

P.S. I learnt a lot about east european history from this thread, Edifying.

	03-05-2002 13:00									#307
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quote: I suspect Greek antipathy to the U.S. is tied closely to the fact that Turkey and the U.S. are so close. Isn't this right? Ned

I rather think that it's more because of the way US helped dictatorship of the Colonels to came to power and to stay in place in Greece, rather than seing a communist party elected.
When your country had to live under a junta rule for some decades because some other country considered it better than to let it have a democratic government that would be sympathetical to its opponent, it's normal you hold some QUITE HUGE grudge against it.

	03-05-2002 13:18									#308
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Trust me, the Greeks should be grateful for the Junta. The alternative was a completely bizarre and miserable life up until the 90's, and rebuilding afterwards.

Just look at all the central european countries.

	03-05-2002 13:22									#309
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quote: Originally posted by Serb I’m not wounded at all and I’m not a linguist, but again in times of Roman Empire Slavs did not existed. I believe that you are mistaken. Do you think the Slavs called themselves slaves? It’s absurd. On Russian or any other Slav’s language the Slav’s people are called “Slavyane” I guess it’s originated from word “slava” which means “glory” and ‘slavyane’ means- ‘glorious people’.

You are mistaken, Slavs have existed for a lot longer than the Roman Empire. Here's a Russian site for you with the pertinent information:

http://histru.newmail.ru/Add/slave.htm

And here's the information for anyone who doesn't want to wait for that page to load:



Ýòèìîëîãèÿ àíãë. slave



Ìåíÿ ïî÷òè óáåäèëè (SASA íà ÂÈÔ), ÷òî ñîâð. àíãë. slave ïðîèñõîäèò îò èìåíè ñëàâÿí:

1. http://www.bartleby.com/61/62/S0466200.html:

NOUN:
1. One bound in servitude as the property of a person or household. 2. One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence: "I was still the slave of education and prejudice" (Edward Gibbon) 3. One who works extremely hard. 4. A machine or component controlled by another machine or component. I

NTRANSITIVE VERB:
Inflected forms: slaved, slav·ing, slaves 1. To work very hard or doggedly; toil. 2. To trade in or transport slaves.

ETYMOLOGY:
Middle English sclave, from Old French esclave, from Medieval Latin sclvus, from Sclvus, Slav (from the widespread enslavement of captured Slavs in the early Middle Ages). See SLAV.

WORD HISTORY:
The derivation of the word slave encapsulates a bit of European history and explains why the two words slaves and Slavs are so similar; they are, in fact, historically identical. The word slave first appears in English around 1290, spelled sclave. The spelling is based on Old French esclave from Medieval Latin sclavus, "Slav, slave," first recorded around 800. Sclavus comes from Byzantine Greek sklabos (pronounced sklavs) "Slav," which appears around 580. Sklavos approximates the Slavs' own name for themselves, the Slovnci, surviving in English Slovene and Slovenian. The spelling of English slave, closer to its original Slavic form, first appears in English in 1538. Slavs became slaves around the beginning of the ninth century when the Holy Roman Empire tried to stabilize a German-Slav frontier. By the 12th century stabilization had given way to wars of expansion and extermination that did not end until the Poles crushed the Teutonic Knights at Grunwald in 1410.·As far as the Slavs' own self-designation goes, its meaning is, understandably, better than "slave"; it comes from the Indo-European root *kleu-, whose basic meaning is "to hear" and occurs in many derivatives meaning "renown, fame." The Slavs are thus "the famous people." Slavic names ending in -slav incorporate the same word, such as Czech Bohu-slav, "God's fame," Russian Msti-slav, "vengeful fame," and Polish Stani-slaw, "famous for withstanding (enemies)."

2. http://www.britannica.com/cgi-bin/dict?va=slave:

Main Entry: 'slave
Pronunciation: 'slAv
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English sclave, from Old French or Medieval Latin; Old French esclave, from Medieval Latin sclavus, from Sclavus Slavic; from the frequent enslavement of Slavs in central Europe Date: 14th century.
1 :

	03-05-2002 13:32									#310
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Trust me, the Greeks should be grateful for the Junta. The alternative was a completely bizarre and miserable life up until the 90's, and rebuilding afterwards. Just look at all the central european countries.

Wait to live under a military junta before saying that someone should be thankful about it.
And I was talking about a REAL democratic communist government, not the kind of government Stalin imposed to the East : Greece was not liberated by Russian's armies.

	03-05-2002 13:35									#311
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander from another source By the 12th century stabilization had given way to wars of expansion and extermination that did not end until the Poles crushed the Teutonic Knights at Grunwald in 1410.

It was the roughly 50/50 army of Poland and Lithuania that crushed the teutons at Grunwald [Tannenberg]. In fact, the cunning maneuver of faked retreat and the resulting slaughter of the whole right flank of the Teuton army by Grand Duke Vytautas of Lithuania was the decider of the battle, when the central Polish line was already starting to falter.

The army got drunk afterwards on all the Burgundy the Teutons brought with them to celebrate , thus giving von Plauen (to whom command devolved after von Jungingen was killed in battle) three days to regroup and fortify in Marienberg.

It pisses me off when pollacks steal our history.

	03-05-2002 13:39									#312
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quote: Etymology: Middle English sclave, from Old French or Medieval Latin; Old French esclave, from Medieval Latin sclavus, from Sclavus Slavic; from the frequent enslavement of Slavs in central Europe

[cocky]
I knew I was right
[/cocky]

	03-05-2002 13:40									#313
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil Wait to live under a military junta before saying that someone should be thankful about it. And I was talking about a REAL democratic communist government, not the kind of government Stalin imposed to the East : Greece was not liberated by Russian's armies.

You may be right; Greece could have had something of a yugoslav system eventually, and now live like Croatia or Slovenia (whose GDP/capita is close or even higher (?) than Greece's).

	03-05-2002 14:29									#314
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 That's all I'm saying. I can't remember any american victory anywhere.

You aren't trying very hard are you? Starting with the British in the Revolutionary war and the War of 1812 when we were tiny and our military was even tinier. Then we beat the Mexicans with a volunteer force against their professional and European trained and much larger army, then we beat the crap out of ourselves, Spain, Germany in WWI, Germany in WWII, Italy, Japan. We fought the Chinese and Koreans to a stalemate while simultaneously bearing the brunt of the burden for defending Western Europe. Vietnam was a lost war, but it wasn't exactly a cakewalk for our opponents who lost many times more men and couldn't win until we were gone for several years. We then won the cold war and the Gulf War.

Of course we didn't do all of this by ourselves by any stretch of the imagination. We had allies more often than not, and in most cases their contribution to the effort was significant.

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Even in WW2 the ones who took the bulk of the fight and saved Europe from the Nazis were again the Russians. (of course they were just fighting their enemy, but in their free time they saved Europe too).

Forgive me if I don't bow down and thank the Soviets for saving Europe. They were happy enough to ally with the Nazis in order to gobble up as much territory as they could, and were dragged into the war against Germany completely against their will. The fact that they used the opportunity to again grab as much territory as they could again shows how selfish their behavior was at all times. I do admit that they faced the bulk of the German war effort, probably 70%. But they didn't have a choice in the matter, and they did what they had to do. Bravely.

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 It is high time you get off your high horse. Your "antipathy" towards people like Russians or French, just because you have conflicting interests, makes you look repulsive.

I realize that this is intended for someone else, but I just want to say that I have personally defended both the French and the Russians from some of the ganging up that Americans and other Europeans have engaged in on these forums from time to time. I agree that a lot of that is ignorant.

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Russians and French have a history you can not ever hope to match.

This is pure hyperbole. In many ways we already compare favorably to these two countries, and who knows what the future will hold? Greece may even rise to new heights someday!

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Instead of getting involved in a piss fight and show how small hearted and insecure you are, it would be better to start reading some non american newspapers.

That can be an excersize in futility as well. Americans don't have a monopoly on ignorance or press bias.

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I have never seen people more brainwashed than some Americans here.

You just don't see how much many of the others (including you) are brainwashed because we Americans are numerous and our media is well represented internationally. Our opinions are easy to find and critique. We are perhaps stubborn and bullheaded, but we put ourselves on the line more than almost anyone else, and we are criticized more than anyone else but the Israelis. This makes us more defensive and steadfast in our beliefs than we would be normally. On the other hand we have a better idea of how other non-western countries think sometimes than most Europeans because we are engaged with those countries in a wider range of ways. This is why Americans are less optimistic about things like 'the peace process', or the international court. We deal directly with the failures of high ideas which make sense to the Western mind but fail utterly when applied to world at large, and are hence more aware of these matters than the denizens of most European countries who have known nothing but peace for more than a half century and spend most of their time dealing with other European countries who have the same experience.

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 To condemn others of being brainwashed, others whose accomplishments over the centuries overpass yours by light years is one of the most ironic things I have ever encountered. But, hey, it's just me and according to you I'm an anti-american (one of the billions really)

If it's only billions of anti-Americans, then I'm betting on the USA.

	03-05-2002 14:33									#315
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Saras,

You quote me above, but the quote is from someone else. If you could edit that I would appreciate it. I get into enough trouble with my own words.

	03-05-2002 15:20									#316
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Oops

	03-05-2002 15:34									#317
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Forgive me if I don't bow down and thank the Soviets for saving Europe. They were happy enough to ally with the Nazis in order to gobble up as much territory as they could, and were dragged into the war against Germany completely against their will. The fact that they used the opportunity to again grab as much territory as they could again shows how selfish their behavior was at all times.

EXACTLY!

	03-05-2002 18:39									#318
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" It was the roughly 50/50 army of Poland and Lithuania that crushed the teutons at Grunwald [Tannenberg]. In fact, the cunning maneuver of faked retreat and the resulting slaughter of the whole right flank of the Teuton army by Grand Duke Vytautas of Lithuania was the decider of the battle, when the central Polish line was already starting to falter.

The army got drunk afterwards on all the Burgundy the Teutons brought with them to celebrate , thus giving von Plauen (to whom command devolved after von Jungingen was killed in battle) three days to regroup and fortify in Marienberg.

It pisses me off when pollacks steal our history."

The false retreat of Lithuanians is just theory. Another says that You escaped for real. i have never heard of Lithuanians coming back to the battle later... Anyway later You backed off from the war, happy with ?mud?, and we had to lead next wars with TK ourselves.

	03-05-2002 19:23									#319
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson The false retreat of Lithuanians is just theory. Another says that You escaped for real. i have never heard of Lithuanians coming back to the battle later... Anyway later You backed off from the war, happy with ?mud?, and we had to lead next wars with TK ourselves.

What TK afterwards? There was no real threat from them after Grunwald to speak of.

And the retreat is not theory, but a maneuver Vytautas learned from his Tatar tutors. Can you really expect a fleeing army to think twice in the middle of fleeing and then returning to battle?

If you've never heard of the Lithuanian return later to the battle you have not been listening. Read your own historical sources (Dlugosz and others), not some tripe pushed by revisionist historians with a small penis complex.

Aren't Grunwald battle charts with the Vytautas maneuver a given? Funny how you pollacks always want to keep our victories to yourselves, while it is Lithuania that stood at the core of Rzecpospolitas military.

	03-05-2002 20:12									#320
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Aren't Grunwald battle charts with the Vytautas maneuver a given? Funny how you pollacks always want to keep our victories to yourselves, while it is Lithuania that stood at the core of Rzecpospolitas military.

That is really funny. You have shown your military spirit while fighting with Moscow many times... You always needed Polish help.
But that's nothing we should quarrel about.
Lets talk about it as a one country;
You know very good that name "Poland" is ment as all Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth.

	03-05-2002 20:40									#321
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--"You have shown your military spirit while fighting with Moscow many times"

Huh? Tell me about it. I know we burned that village down like five times in ten years or something

I know Poland is meant as the Rzecpospolita; it pisses me off that Lithuania is commonly accepted as an appendix to Poland rather than a member of a voluntary federation of nations.

And we should have crowned Vytautas after Grunwald as King of Lithuania - that would have kept us a lean mean fighting machine as opposed to the "veto-democracy" of the Rzecpospolita that became unable to wage any war against the Muscovite threat.

So there

	03-05-2002 20:58									#322
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"Huh? Tell me about it. I know we burned that village down like five times in ten years or something

Perhaps, but Vilnius was also burned once or twice...

"I know Poland is meant as the Rzecpospolita; it pisses me off that Lithuania is commonly accepted as an appendix to Poland rather than a member of a voluntary federation of nations.
Well You know originally it WAS supposed to be "addition" to Poland. And anyway You were polonised. If someone calls a Libyan
Arab he doesn't mean he is inferior to Saudi Arabia...

"And we should have crowned Vytautas after Grunwald as King of Lithuania - that would have kept us a lean mean fighting machine as opposed to the "veto-democracy" of the Rzecpospolita that became unable to wage any war against the Muscovite threat.

If you crowned Witold, that would be a rebellion against Gradn duke Jagiello and
Vytautas would have to be thrown out of the throne and Lithuania incorporated into
Poland
And anyway, I don't know how it would be supposed to help You... You would loose Polish help, and be left alone against all your enemies. I doubt You'd survive.

	03-05-2002 22:05									#323
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quote: Most of those 24,000 were destroyed in the battles of annihilation (Kiev, Vyazma, etc.). Further, the US produced many more, and further, the Brits sent Lend Lease too.

Are you trying to say that during WW2 USA produced more tanks then USSR?

quote: The Soviets survived because of the West.

This is a typical American bullsh!t.

	03-05-2002 22:15									#324
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quote: Doubt that. You, Russians, have or at least had up till revolution no tradition of defending own beliefs, just to obey tzar. Of course some would rebel, but I doubt they would gain any significant power. Peter I could do with You what he wanted. Alexander would be able to do it too

You know Russians less then I expected. The Orthodox Church always was one of the ‘driving forces’ for Russia. It’s part of our traditions, our way of life. I can’t even think seriously that ANY of Russian tsars EVER even thought about conversion to Catholicism

quote: It's your big problem, Serb, and that's why Apolyton communists should hate You. You are representing "odchylenie prawicowo-nacjonalistyczne wewnatrz komunizmu", You are uniting communism and nationalism, and that's really bad thing to do.

No one ever call me an ultra-right nationalist, you are the first. And of course this is not true.

quote: Anyway, such thinking, that Russia and USSR is the same, was one of the factors that destroyed USSR

Sure SU was the same Russian Empire just with new tsars and new religion (atheism).

quote: They weren't ready for that. They were forced to do that.

Oh sure they were forced to sacrifice their lives, because they wanted to win, they wanted to save their families and they wanted to protect their country from invaders.


Vlasov was the ****!ng traitor who wanted to save his ass when he was captured by nazi. This dog is disgrace of his country.

quote: Yes, if they use it in battle though it's falling apart and dangerous for human beings.

Hey, Americans where are you? This guy just said that US Navy is a crap!!! What a heresy.

quote: You are better - a bit

Thank you very much. I’m so glad that you think so.

quote: You know very well that UN won't support anyone against major powers.

Oh look!!!
First we were losers without any political influence, now we are one of the major powers.
What a progress!!!

quote: Anyway Russia is a FEDERATION.

Exactly. That’s why this claim is nonsense-

quote: Tchechenians are in their own land, in which they have lived - before Russians came there.

This land is part of Russian FEDERATION. Chechnya always was and always be a subject of FEDERATION. And before we leave it in 1996 there lived many other nationalities, lived for centuries.

Anyway if they wanted freedom they have it for more then 3 years. So what did they done? Perhaps they build a single school? NO. Perhaps they build a single hospital? NO. Note that even consider bad shape of Russian economy and “de facto” independence of Chechnya for period of 1996-1999 Russian government constantly paid a huge amount of money to Chechnya as war reparations. What did they done then, how they spent those money?
Let’s see.
They established a fundamentalist state based on terrible, inhuman medieval laws, they made hundreds of terrorist’s acts in many cities of Russia killing thousands of civilians (notice: after they already WON their war for independence), they stole thousands of citizens of Russia and hundreds of foreign citizens for ransom and for (now please read very carefully) for SLAVERY, slaves in XX century!!! Can you imagine this? (You are lucky that you didn’t saw eyes of 11 years old Israel’s boy who was liberated by our Speznaz in Chechnya, he has almost no fingers on his palms. Those bastards cut off his fingers and send it to Israel for his parents to receive a ransom. You are lucky that you didn’t saw the eyes of those people, those was the same eyes the prisoners of nazi death camps has). They hired a new army of mercenaries; they created hundreds of terrorist’s training camps, hundreds of bases, hideouts, ammo deposits. And finally they invaded a neighbor Dagestan. Doing this, they declared war against Russian Federation and they lost this war. If some bastards attacking us we usually destroy those bastards. We have right to defend ourselves and no one can take this right from us. Our army brings constitutional order in Chechnya, it brings human’s rights and freedoms there. No one cut off palms of criminals there now, no one burn people alive because they are Christians, the people have right to elect and to be elected and any other freedoms the other citizens of Russian Federation have.

quote: Those wasn't an action of Tchechenian gouverment.

Sure it was. Who do you think Basayev was? The minister of this so-called government.

quote: That's the theory of Mickiewicz in fact

Really?
I thought it’s my one theory, I don’t know this guy Mickiewicz. Who is he?
[Warning, just kidding] Anyway, great minds think alike. [Warning, just kidding]
I think this is not a big deal to see the connection between the word “Slava” and the word “Slavyane”.

quote: Again, when it comes to Russian military, it usually doesn't have anything to do with skill, but number.

Then I’ll refresh your memory. Is the name of Alexandr Suvorov didn’t tell you about anything?

quote: In fact You did. You showed us them as one of the interveniants. In another words, they were rebelled province of yours that You had right to anect, just like Tchechenia.

The foreign intervention during Russian Civil war and the ‘Winter war’ is absolutely different wars. Don’t you think so?

quote: Again I dare to ask You to remember what I wrote; Polish army had orders not to fight with You.

You don’t need to repeat this. I knew it when you said it first time. When Soviets went through Poland there almost was no resistance.

quote: Forgotten about one thing. Serb. If You feel so bad about Jecyn, why do You like Putin, he's chosen one...? After all such a bad guy coudn't do anything right, especially choose a good prime minister and next president. Or didn't he choose Putin but Putin forced him to resign

I think this is the only good thing this bad guy done. And actually I didn’t trust to Putin when he was a prime minister only because Yeltsin liked him. I didn’t vote for Putin. Now I’m regret about this, he is the good man.

	03-05-2002 22:21									#325
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quote: You are mistaken, Slavs have existed for a lot longer than the Roman Empire. Here's a Russian site for you with the pertinent information:

They were not called a “Slavs” at this time. Nomadic tribes like «Skifs» – the ancestors of Slavs, the one who populated the lands, which were later populated by Slavs. Herodotus used the word “Skifs” in V century B.C. for description of all tribes, which populated the territories of Eastern Europe.

quote: WORD HISTORY: The derivation of the word slave encapsulates a bit of European history and explains why the two words slaves and Slavs are so similar; they are, in fact, historically identical. The word slave first appears in English around 1290, spelled sclave. The spelling is based on Old French esclave from Medieval Latin sclavus, "Slav, slave," first recorded around 800. Sclavus comes from Byzantine Greek sklabos (pronounced sklavs) "Slav," which appears around 580.

Well if talk is about 800, then yes Slavs already existed at this time and there were Slav's cities, but there were many Slav’s tribes each one of them has it’s one name like “polyane”, “drevlyane”, “Mazovshane, “Vyatichy”, “Radichy” etc. And I want to ask one question. Is there was no slavery before this time? Is there were no slaves and there was no word for slave in Latin language before this time?

quote: Sklavos approximates the Slavs' own name for themselves…

Not even a close. Our own name for ourselves is “slavyane” and it’s pretty clear for me that it’s originated from word “slava”.

quote: Ìåíÿ ïî÷òè óáåäèëè (SASA íà ÂÈÔ), ÷òî ñîâð. àíãë. slave ïðîèñõîäèò îò èìåíè ñëàâÿí:

I don’t know this guy, but even he said “you are almost, ALMOST convinced me”, not “I’m pretty sure now that I was mistaken”.
I really can’t debate about the origin of word ‘slave’ in your language, because I don’t know your language good enough and I’m not a linguist and because it’s a little boring.

I’ll better return to provocation, such as:

quote: Forgive me if I don't bow down and thank the Soviets for saving Europe. They were happy enough to ally with the Nazis in order to gobble up as much territory as they could, and were dragged into the war against Germany completely against their will. The fact that they used the opportunity to again grab as much territory as they could again shows how selfish their behavior was at all times.

Just notice, Stalin used opportunity to return former Russian provinces to Russia. Those lands belonged to Russian Empire before the revolution, civil war and your allied intervention.
*Running away*

	03-05-2002 22:26									#326
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quote: Originally posted by Saras EXACTLY!

*returns*
Almost forget, one more thing,
Sure for you it was better to stay under nazi’s rule. You really loved those guys.
Sure why not? You weren’t a “non-humans” for them; you joined them in their war against Russians. You want to “de juro” rehabilitate SS veterans in your country, while “de facto” you already rehabilitated them.
Nice going guys.

	03-05-2002 22:33									#327
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Heresson Lets talk about it as a one country; You know very good that name "Poland" is ment as all Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth.

quote: from Saras --"You have shown your military spirit while fighting with Moscow many times" Huh? Tell me about it. I know we burned that village down like five times in ten years or something

Aha,vse lyahtichi v sbore.
Ladno glumites dalshe.
My vas imeli I imet budem!!! Vecno.


a te kto s nami ne soglasen puskai zarubyat na nosu,
dlya nas lubov i bibliya i pishya,
no mozhem dat i polizu,
Zaaaaaaaaaaa rodnoe Katmanduuuuuuuuu..

popribuite eshe raz spolit nashu stoilzu, i vam malo ne pokazhetsya eto ya vam mogu garantirovat.

	03-05-2002 23:28									#328
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quote: Originally posted by Serb quote: The Soviets survived because of the West. This is a typical American bullsh!t.

Well, the West "lend-lease" assisted a lot to SU in first two years of war (1941-1942(3)). And I am Russian, deeply appriciated to UK, USA people who support us in very hard moment.
Brains were washed in both countries (SU & USA). In fact, we win together. Allies economical/technological power + SU sacrifying army.
btw, SU needed badly second front, we expected it much earlier...
I agree that "many soviet people survived because of West", that's true. In the same time, many US/USA soldiers and europeans were survived because of Russia.
So, guys don't be silly.
About, first topic. I would like to see Russia second in list, but we need to fight for this position. I write "fight", but I don't mean bloody war - I mean trade and economics growth. Perhaps, trade wars, like last one "Chicken vs Steel"

Regards.

	03-05-2002 23:37									#329
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quote: Originally posted by Serb This land is part of Russian FEDERATION. Chechnya always was and always be a subject of FEDERATION. And before we leave it in 1996 there lived many other nationalities, lived for centuries. Anyway if they wanted freedom they have it for more then 3 years. So what did they done? Perhaps they build a single school? NO. Perhaps they build a single hospital? NO. Note that even consider bad shape of Russian economy and “de facto” independence of Chechnya for period of 1996-1999 Russian government constantly paid a huge amount of money to Chechnya as war reparations. What did they done then, how they spent those money? Let’s see. They established a fundamentalist state based on terrible, inhuman medieval laws, they made hundreds of terrorist’s acts in many cities of Russia killing thousands of civilians (notice: after they already WON their war for independence), they stole thousands of citizens of Russia and hundreds of foreign citizens for ransom and for (now please read very carefully) for SLAVERY, slaves in XX century!!! Can you imagine this? (You are lucky that you didn’t saw eyes of 11 years old Israel’s boy who was liberated by our Speznaz in Chechnya, he has almost no fingers on his palms. Those bastards cut off his fingers and send it to Israel for his parents to receive a ransom. You are lucky that you didn’t saw the eyes of those people, those was the same eyes the prisoners of nazi death camps has). They hired a new army of mercenaries; they created hundreds of terrorist’s training camps, hundreds of bases, hideouts, ammo deposits. And finally they invaded a neighbor Dagestan. Doing this, they declared war against Russian Federation and they lost this war. If some bastards attacking us we usually destroy those bastards. We have right to defend ourselves and no one can take this right from us. Our army brings constitutional order in Chechnya, it brings human’s rights and freedoms there. No one cut off palms of criminals there now, no one burn people alive because they are Christians, the people have right to elect and to be elected and any other freedoms the other citizens of Russian Federation have. Sure it was. Who do you think Basayev was? The minister of this so-called government.

Serb, et al., While there may be some exaggeration here, after we learned more about the Taliban, I suspect there is a lot that you say that is not an exaggeration.

Islamic fundamentalism is a real threat to civilization. It is not simply a religion. It is extremely aggressive political movement and is making war on the civilized world.

To some who believe that Osama bin Laden is all about Israel, the Russian experience in Chechnya is a wake up call. This is a world problem. We are under attack.

Ned

	04-05-2002 01:09									#330
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Islamic fundamentalism is a real threat to civilization. It is not simply a religion. It is extremely aggressive political movement and is making war on the civilized world.

Any fundamentalism and fanatism is a threat to civilization and a treason of the religion it is supposed to serve.