20-10-2002 19:06									#151
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I usually forgo all beams before neutron blasters for missiles anyway. More punch for your money.

	20-10-2002 22:05									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Zealot I have to strongly disagree with vmxa1. Hv Af Mass Drivers are way better than Hv fully modded Laser beams. You should try comparing them against a BB with Zortium. Check out wich is efficient and wich isn't.

What is there to disagree with, I never said they were better, only that they can be used, if you choose to pick something other than mass drivers. I have done it both ways. To me it is situational. I try to get by without using beams for as long as I can. I prefer to use phasors, but sometimes, I do not get that option. I may be attacked by ships that I can not kill with missiles. Mostly, I can get by with missile ships till I am past mass drivers.

	20-10-2002 22:13									#153
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So if I have Zortium armour, I will likely have Phasors and that is when I start making beamers, unless forced to sooner. Phasors can be used all the way, if you want to. I tend to switch to Disruptors when I get them. So it will be BB with phasors and titans with disruptors or DS. Below BB, missiles mostly.

	21-10-2002 00:02									#154
	Increase Your PM Length

Oh my!
When I get Zortium I don't even have neutron beam/scanner!
Although yesterday I set my personal record by getting Autolabs by turn 113, I could have gotten Zortium earlyer.
But it was a 1v1 with another human player on a large map, organic rich and average tech, so the game might be a little different from what you guys usually play.

About the Lasers vs Mass Drivers issue, sorry vmxa1, I misinterpreted you.

	21-10-2002 00:35									#155
	Suffering from ads?

No problem, I was not real clear, I think it was very wee hours. I should have mentioned, I am not a laser proponent. I have seen them be the best I could do at times. Garth Vader was the one who convinced me that they have a place. I normally like phasors, but often I do not have the choice as they may come see me before I can get them. Depends on my race the map and what races are nearest and so many things. The thing that makes the game fun after all this time is that you can not just cookie cutter the play. You need to adapt to the game at hand. Many things are fairly constant, but some need to be altered at times. Did I manage to steal a good tech? Did I have to bypass some shield or armor or beam? Did I manage to get tech that lets me fit these weapons in with numbers enough to help? So many factors.

	21-10-2002 16:55									#156
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 So many factors.

Such a great game.

	21-10-2002 23:10									#157
	finally won impossible Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

My new custom race, after having read this forum is:
low grav
spying penalty
ground combat penalty
creative
aquatic
subterranean
large homeworld

Because of subterranean, I get so much more population that I get far better research and production that when I go with my Psilon-like custom race. I form only a few colonies outside the home system before needing to conquer my neighbors. When I used my Psilon-like race, I wouldn't be able to make more than one before having enemies on the doorstep.

Man are the naval battles huge! They routinely have a dozen or more battleships though I still come out ahead because they can't hit my ships.

Thanks for all the tips.

ps. I used autofire armor piercing lasers early and they seemed to work quite well.

	22-10-2002 00:27									#158
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Yes that race will work.

	22-10-2002 23:21									#159
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Xoham, I should have pointed out that -spying can be a huge pain for a creative race in the early going. That used to be my favorite neg pick, but on a 8 players map the races will steal everything you have until you get the spy bonus techs. Even with 4 spies, the -10 agents lets them go to town and in fact will often kill your agents. If you have Draxx the assasin it helps. I try to not makeany contact early with that race or else get mad at the stealing. Below impossible it not as nasty.

	23-10-2002 01:29									#160
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Spy negative bonii are a pain. I go for light gravity instead.

	23-10-2002 02:33									#161
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Yes, someone recently posted that spying was great freebie and I let it go, but really it will not be fun at impossible level for most games. You can pick the Darloks face to help keep them out of it, but if they are in and make very early contact, you will lose all your tech and spies real fast. I stopped using it and use others. It is fine for non creative races as they will not have muct tech to steal for the early game.

	24-10-2002 15:51									#162
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I didn't even know there was a v. 1.31, I have always played v. 1.2. I got it in a pack with MoM, MOO1 and two X-Com games (for 20$), which is probably the best deal dollar for dollar I have ever had for software.

I usually played with the following:

Demo, Creative, Subterranean, Large Home World

Repulsive, -Ship Defense, -Ground Combat

Impossible, Pre-Warp, 8 races, Huge

I found it quite easy, obviously.

My current game is (same game settings), but this time I have:

feudal, telep., warlord, creative and some other minor minuses. I am doing really well. I actually built all of my ships with scout labs to beef up my science early on. I got lucky with some good leaders, megawealth, diplomacy and a decent researcher (it helped with my pathetic science rate). I got into a bunch of treaties which saved my bacon with money and research, and now I have a fair chunk of the huge galaxy (about 35%). I am fighting and easily winning my first war, though the big boys are beginning to get hostile, so it could be tense for a while. Tech is at about the 1500 range.

I downloaded the 1.31 patch tonight, so my next game should be even more interesting.

	24-10-2002 21:44									#163
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The 1.2 version was way too easy and should not even be played.
1.31 key changes:

Creative 8 pick, not 6
Tactical combt, the attacker goes first
AI no longer surrenders systems at the drop of a hat. In the past it would be willing to give a system even though you were not really doing any damage to it, it was silly.
Gyros effectiveness reduce and they take more space.
Plasma Cannon same
Assault Shuttles no longer can be used more than once
The leader arrivial reduction eliminated
No refit of captured ships

These have made the game a bit better and creative is not the cake walk it used to be. It will still be strong if you make it past the early phase.

	24-10-2002 21:49									#164
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I can't speak to feudal on 1.2 as that was too long ago, but on 1.31 feudal is a real pain. You have to go to all out war mode to offset the research.

	25-10-2002 04:18									#165
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Actually, although if properly played you'll never notice it, they did away with the somebody first rule in 1.31 and have real initiative...

	25-10-2002 04:40									#166
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The attacker goes first or real init is a selectable option.
what do you think about the point I was making on 1.2 being so much easier than 131?

	25-10-2002 11:01									#167
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I can't speak to feudal on 1.2 as that was too long ago, but on 1.31 feudal is a real pain. You have to go to all out war mode to offset the research.

I had remembered it being quite difficult also, especially since I have very limited experience with it. This time a few things worked to my benefit. My first leader was Lydon, who kind of sucks, except when you get him really early. Then his megawealth, fame and diplomacy really help. I was able to get up and out with outpost ships to meet and greet, and then got into research and trade agreements with three alien races (The Cats, The Dogs and the Trilarians).

My research was pathetic, but I got a ship leader early on who added 15 rp, which was about a 50%+ gain at that point. I cranked colonies out as fast as possible and dropped them on the worlds previously staked out by my outpost ships. Then I put auto-factories, hydroponic farms, research labs and missle bases up.

I had never used scout labs before, but my enormous command point surplus and pitiful research point total combined to make me take a look at them. It seemed a good move for another reason, as it might keep the AI from getting acquisitive as well. It worked like a charm, though of course the tiny benefits realized by the scout labs only had an impact on my research rate for a short time.

The funny thing was that no one messed with me for quite a while. I guess because I played a repulsive race so much in the past I was used to getting slammed if I had such a slow start. Finally the Klackons got mad at me (I was framed, probably by the Darloks) and declared war. I was shocked at how easily that went. My fleet just walked over them, and they were assimilated. Their workers are better than mine, so I'm having a ball.

Next game we'll try 1.31

Btw, can anyone describe for me how the initiative system works? One of the huge advantages in 1.2 is that I always seems to go first in tactical combat. Early on I use this time well, and by midgame a combat rarely lasts beyond the middle of my initial fire phase. It would be nice to see things mixed up a bit.

	25-10-2002 11:21									#168
	Increase Your PM Length

Tactical combat ship initiative is now an option on the Game/Settings
screen. When this option is enabled, ships in combat will move in
the order of their initiative rating. The initiative rating is equal
to the ship's total beam offense bonus divided by 10 plus the ship's
current combat speed [Offense/(10+speed)]. Thus, smaller ships should
move before bigger, slower ones.

	27-10-2002 02:14									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Zealot Unification(6) + Tolerant(10) + +1 Industry(3) + Large HW(1) Repulsive(-6) + -1 Ground Combat(-2) + -1 Ship Defense(-2) Easiest race in the game, since you can't have more production than this! More prod means more colony bases and c. ships, so you have more pop, and therefor more science. Sweet, sweet race!

I stumble across a note I had made about playing this race and remembered your post. This is one of the 2 strongest races (or easiest games) I recall playing. I just fired it up again, just rolling along. Too good of a start with 3 planets besides my HW, not even fair. Prewarp, 8 players, impossible, did not notice what the size is or the age. Tol is the one trait, that I would use Uni with in single player game. Now you do not need to build anti pollution or morale enhancers as long as you do not add in any slaves. I got Houri and used her as I had one world with natives, so they polluted.
This will be a quick game.

	27-10-2002 23:18									#170
	If this is one of the 2 strongest... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Which is the other strongest then vmxa1?

I'm having my most success with this one though I admit I haven't tried too many variations since I found it:

low G penalty
spying penalty
ground combat penalty

creative
subterranean
aquatic
large home world

The huge pop bonus makes all the difference.

Last edited by xoham on 28-10-2002 at 03:43

	27-10-2002 23:59									#171
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I played a race that was Democartic/Lith/LHW/RHW and it was a power house. Two others that are very strong are Dem/Creative/Aqua and Tele/Lith/AHW/LHW.
Really there are a ton of very good races, some play better with specific set ups. If Creative, the larger the world the better and advance tech is better than prewarp. Lith types do better in a mineral rich universe. Tele is best in a not so huge universe, so they can get on their neighbors quickly. Home World values are more important to a tele, as they need to get moving fast. The longer they wait the better the defense will be on those planets. You can often replace AHW with a +sci in a bigger universe to better use, if the game goes on for awhile +sci is used on more planets. It helps the aqua creative race as they have more population and creative wants that research boost. These are just my opinons.

	28-10-2002 07:42									#172
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

What penalties do you choose for these? I find that if I have a spying penalty and no Creative, its tough to get the techs I really want. With Creative, you can eventually get enough spying techs to steal stuff (or at least produce decent spy defense).

Hard to compromise between armor and fuel cells. I think the game conspires to surround me with empty systems on Impossible. I cant very well be taking on monsters/Orion without some decent armor, and I can't reach enemy systems til midgame without some fuel cells.

Maybe trade for techs?

Maybe I will switch to ship defense as the penalty.

	28-10-2002 09:09									#173
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quote: Originally posted by xoham What penalties do you choose for these? I find that if I have a spying penalty and no Creative, its tough to get the techs I really want. With Creative, you can eventually get enough spying techs to steal stuff (or at least produce decent spy defense). Hard to compromise between armor and fuel cells. I think the game conspires to surround me with empty systems on Impossible. I cant very well be taking on monsters/Orion without some decent armor, and I can't reach enemy systems til midgame without some fuel cells. Maybe trade for techs? Maybe I will switch to ship defense as the penalty.

Depends. Current choices are Rep, -Ship Def, -Ground combat. If you want to spy then -spy is painful until you get all the tech to boost it up. In a huge uni you may have time to do that as a creative race. Sometimes I play with + to spying and just go for stealing as I do in Moo1.
You can skip the earliest cell if you use outpost to get out farther.
You can often skip the first armor and wait for Z-armor, that is all you need for a long time and by the time you are doing the 1500 rp you should be able to steal some things. The real killer for me is not having missible bases.

	28-10-2002 14:50									#174
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Hm. Perhaps we should have a tread over the most difficult tech choices? You need automated factories, but being w/out missile bases is difficult. For me, the "worst" choices are in the comp ladder - it's always comp vs. science building, and I so need them both. They are difficult to trade as well.

	28-10-2002 21:58									#175
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Yes, there are several nasty choices. I have suffered many times for the lack of computers on beam ships.

	28-10-2002 22:18									#176
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I only skip Trit if I'm playing in a huge galaxy with 4 players (me + 3 others). Otherwise, ALWAYS get tritanium armor.

Missile bases are useless unless you have mercs with zortium armor and your opponents Batleships don't have a good computer.

	28-10-2002 23:39									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Zealot I only skip Trit if I'm playing in a huge galaxy with 4 players (me + 3 others). Otherwise, ALWAYS get tritanium armor. Missile bases are useless unless you have mercs with zortium armor and your opponents Batleships don't have a good computer.

Most things are situational. With 8 players, I have seen ships show up and the fight is a toss up with just a star base. If I had a missile base at that point it would be a chinch. I have not played with less than 8 players in a long time so I can not address that. I would normally take the armor and skip the cells as outpost can be use to extend my range. again it is all situational. Some conditions, I do X, other times, I do Y.

	08-11-2002 03:20									#178
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My favorite custom race:

Creative
Democratic
+1 production
large homeworld
All combat and spying negatives.

When I get my evolutionary mutation, I add "Warlord"

I don't play MOO2 often anymore, but occasionally I like a romp on "hard" which of course, isn't. That's kinda the point for me.

-Arrian

	08-11-2002 03:45									#179
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Yes that is a good choice. I had at times picked warlords at that stage if I needed more command points. If the darloks are still around, Omni is good so they can not use stealth to sneak up. Good to see you play Moo/Moo2.

	12-11-2002 19:48									#180
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

A technomancer race for 1.31 :-)

Creative
Aquatic
Large home world
Artifacts home world
+1 Research

Penalties:
Low gravity world
-20 Ship attack
-10 Espionage

I have NEVER lost a "no save/load" game on impossible /huge or large galaxy/ max number of opponents with this one .... As someone said - too easy :-)

There may be similar race with Democracy; but it should give up aquatic and +1 Research, and may be take other penalties. I like the described one more because it has the same amount of research and better production and spy defense.

For better challenge you can try "no save/load" game on impossible with 340% difficulty - Huge galaxy; Start tech level - Advanced.

BTW my hi score is 26000+ and is without capturing pop cheat :-) Here is another hint for gaining better population count -> destroy the bad planets with stellar converters and build up them again. They will return as Large planets that can be terraformed :-)

Another thing that is not known to everyone:
There are 8 antarian techs (that kan not be researched by normal means). Capturing Orion gives you 4 of them. To get all you have to capture antarian ships first (not too easy, damn quantum detonators!) and scrap them at your colonies. This way you can obtain 4 technologies
(xentronium, particle, damper field, quantum detonator) even from the smallest ships and then capure Orion for the rest 4 (spatial compressor, black hole, death ray, reflection field).

You can get Moleculartronic Comp & Neutronium bomb from the antarains too (best comp & best bomb) :-)