16-05-2002 03:32									#181
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If I were to defend the EU I would first invest in fighter aircraft, The reason for this is to set up massive airpatrolls over EU. The stealth bombers are defensless againts attack form figther aircarft, the only defense they have is to remain undectected. Thus to try and prevent stealth bombers to get through this would be best solution to the problem. Trying to buy existing air defense systems and try to use them to prevent stealth bombers will not work, (Gulf War, Iraq had lots of anti air systems in place before start of Gulf War, most form Russia, but they did not seceed in preventing stealth bombers form getting through).

The second thing would be is begin massive build up of EU navy. Britian use to have aircraft carriers like the ones the US navy has, they even devoloped many systems used in modern aircraft carriers use by US, but pull them form deployment because the cost of opperating them was so high so they focused on smaller aircraft carriers. Thus start masive building of aircraft carries, also start to devolope subs that are just as quiet as US subs, and start to form carrier groups. The naval battles that would be fought with US would involve aircraft carriers, this is backbone of US navy, and is very powerfull ship.

Then enage in trade embargo againts US with as many countries that could be found that would be willing to comit to such as agreement. Trying to conduct a naval blockade against US would most likely be next to impossible, so this would seem as a better option. Also enage in sub war , like what Germans did in both World Wars.

Sandman are you sure you would want to buy arms form Russia?? There weapons systems are way behind to what the US and NATO has.

	16-05-2002 03:54									#182
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I say keep aircraft carriers small, cheap, simple and disposable. Don't put all your eggs in one 100,000 ton basket.

As for Russian arms, the Russians have good air defense technology, and super-cavitating torpedoes (doubt they'd share them though).

	16-05-2002 04:55									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman As for Russian arms, the Russians have good air defense technology, and super-cavitating torpedoes (doubt they'd share them though).

When they don't blow up and sink the sub that's carrying them...

	16-05-2002 10:02									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www If I were to defend the EU I would first invest in fighter aircraft, The reason for this is to set up massive airpatrolls over EU. The stealth bombers are defensless againts attack form figther aircarft, the only defense they have is to remain undectected. Thus to try and prevent stealth bombers to get through this would be best solution to the problem. Trying to buy existing air defense systems and try to use them to prevent stealth bombers will not work, (Gulf War, Iraq had lots of anti air systems in place before start of Gulf War, most form Russia, but they did not seceed in preventing stealth bombers form getting through).

I believe our stealth aircraft strike at night until the air defenses are worn down.

The EU would have to develop some system to detect and track stealth aircraft, else it has no defense.

The EU would be better advised to develop long range stealth bombers of its own.

Ned

	17-05-2002 06:45									#185
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I saw the Stealth Bomber fly at the Travis A.F.B. last year and when it made a turn about 1 to 2 miles from us, it turn into a very small line in the sky for several sec. until it was about 40* away for where we were standing. You will have to be above it or below it to see it. Edge on you just cannot see it.

	17-05-2002 15:45									#186
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Don't stealth bombers cost a billion dollars or so?

	18-05-2002 09:41									#187
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Yeah, I think they might cost a billion each. But you can see their value if you are going up against a well defended enemy. They lead the attack until the enemy air defenses are close to nil. Then conventional airpower is unleashed.

Ned

	18-05-2002 13:57									#188
	Put an end to popups!

Not only are Stealth Bombers insanely expensive, they can't fly supersonic, in cold weather, or in the day time. They need an expensive climate controlled hangar.

For the cost of one you could develop stealth penetrating radar.

Like the Zeppelin, they are silent and scary, but ultimately flamboyant and useless.

	18-05-2002 17:30									#189
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quote: Yeah, I think they might cost a billion each. But you can see their value if you are going up against a well defended enemy. They lead the attack until the enemy air defenses are close to nil. Then conventional airpower is unleashed.

For the price of just one B-2 you can buy 50 F-15s. I know what I rather have in my airforce.

Not surpsing the US only has a very small number of B-2s, which won't make much of an impact. If the US will build 100s of those things it will quickly bankrupt itself.

	18-05-2002 17:39									#190
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It's worse even...

B-2:
21 in service
2.1 billion a piece
40,000 pound payload

Price of other aircraft:

B-1: 200 million
F-15: 43 million
F-16: 27 million
F-18: 40 million
F-18E/F: 60 million
F-22: 200 million
F-35: 28-38 million

2.1 billion USD will get you:

1 B2 or
10 B1s or
49 F-15s or
78 F-16s or
52 F-18s or
35 F-18E/Fs or
10 F-22s or
55-75 F-35s.

	18-05-2002 22:45									#191
	Tired of ads?

For a billion, you can get an entire ship. An Aegis-type ship. That is going to give you much more in presence than a single aircraft.

Air Force is just too good at plyaing political games to get dollars. They should be beaten back into submission in the Army...

	18-05-2002 22:51									#192
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quote: For a billion, you can get an entire ship. An Aegis-type ship. That is going to give you much more in presence than a single aircraft.

yeah, that's true (stupid I didn't think about it myself).

So in a massive war, it's extremely unlikely the US will build 100s of B-2s. They may build some planes (if at all), but due to the aircraft's poor payload, it's unlikely to make a significant impact.

	18-05-2002 23:04									#193
	Got spare money?

I hear you about the cost. However, we still rely heavily on Stealth aircraft in the initial stages of a war.

Another post here suggested that cruise missles could be just as good. One could buy 1000, maybe, 2000 cruise missiles for the cost of one B2.

The problem Europe has is that the U.S. would quickly dominate the Atlantic and bring the war to Europe. Europe has nothing, other than nukes, that can reach the U.S., if I understand the situation correctly. In other words, Europe today is exactly like Nazi Germany 50 years ago. It really has no strategic offensive capability.

Ned

	18-05-2002 23:48									#194
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True, Europe has few means of taking the war to the US, unless Canada or Mexico get involved.

However, one note on people who think Europe will be quickly overrun: Just about all of the European nations have specialised on homeland defense (while the US specialised on power projection). A massive WW3 style defensive war is exactly what Europe's defense forces are designed for.

quote: However, we still rely heavily on Stealth aircraft in the initial stages of a war.

You only have 21 B-2s. How heavily can you really on 21 aircraft?