11-05-2002 07:18									#121
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assuming no nukes...

I'd be the US, and to invade the EU I'd go up the soft underbelly, taking out mediterranean ports and going up through the balkans, where I'd meet the least resistance (paitkis, et al. )

Aside from that, I think conquering England and Russia would be absolutely impossible. No question in my mind...

	11-05-2002 08:59									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Well, I just finished reading a rather interesting book on the Luftwaffe, which included some notes on Germany's production throughout WWII. Despite constant bombing raids by the US and the British, German industrial production actually increased as the war went on. More tanks, more planes, more guns. A Tomahawk cruise missile costs about $1,000,000 to build and deliver, if not more. Assuming a 500 kg warhead, it would take 2000 of these missiles to deliver as much explosive as the USAF and RAF were dumping on Germany, per day, in WWII from 1943-5. I doubt the US government could afford this type of bombardment for long!

Just for laughs right. The US has these little things that are called bommer. They each carry 20 repeat 20 little item inside and each of those item carry 10 repeat 10 smaller item. 10 X 20= 200 cities gone. So we would only need 10 bommer. We have about 20 to 25 bommer. I think France has about 4 bommer and England has 2 or 3. We also have around 50+ fast attack boats to take care of 7 bommer.

	11-05-2002 09:10									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Colon What does an "easier time" constitute? My point is that separate command centres would prolong the campaign US would have to carry out. If you disagree please tell me why.

Glad to suypply chocalatier,

1. Because sources of resistance could not support each other (effectively).

2. Beacase opverwhelming force could be brought to bear (which is WAAAAY more efficeint) against each opponent in detail.

	11-05-2002 09:12									#124
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Woohoo! Drunk GP!

	11-05-2002 09:14									#125
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Does the lack of a unified national identity in Europe preclude their militaries from working well together? Most of them have been NATO allies for 50 years now...

	11-05-2002 09:15									#126
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hney ?I am niot drunked./

	11-05-2002 09:18									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Ned U.S. vs. EU 1. Establish naval supremacy, particularly in Atlantic. 2. Cut EU off from oil supplies and access to rest of world. 3. Establish bases in Morocco. 4. Establish air supremacy. 5. Bomb EU into submission. 6. If they don't quit, invade through Spain. In other words, pretty much a repeat of WWII, but without England as a launching pad. Airpower would again be decisive. Ned

Rawk one...

	11-05-2002 11:37									#128
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Without knowing what the war was about it is worthless to think about how to win.

	11-05-2002 11:43									#129
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well that was friggen useful (less) post!!!

	11-05-2002 14:00									#130
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quote: Originally posted by joseph1944 Just for laughs right. The US has these little things that are called bommer. .....

Americans are such fun! Where would we find our amusement without them?

	11-05-2002 15:56									#131
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quote: The US has these little things that are called bommer.

This isn't Iraq. American bombers won't stand a chance above European Airspace. Do you honestly think your B-52s with F-18 escorts stand much of a chance against superior numbers of Typhoons and Rafales? Cruise Missiles will be your only option of bombarding Europe, and frankly, you can't afford to use too many of them.

	11-05-2002 16:01									#132
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quote: 1. Establish naval supremacy, particularly in Atlantic.

In the Atlantic you can, though not in the North Sea/Baltic/Med.

quote: 2. Cut EU off from oil supplies and access to rest of world.

I'm sure Russia will be more than willing to supply us with oil.

quote: 3. Establish bases in Morocco.

Considering the sheer number of Morrocans living in Europe: unlikely

quote: 4. Establish air supremacy.

Impossible.

quote: 5. Bomb EU into submission.

Impossible without nukes

quote: . If they don't quit, invade through Spain.

Impossible. ETA bombers will get you

	11-05-2002 16:35									#133
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Whatever it will be like - both continents will be a big mess after the war

	11-05-2002 17:00									#134
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Not if the US can hold naval supremacy in the Atlantic

	11-05-2002 17:45									#135
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Atlantic is irrelevant. We can cross the artic to get them

	11-05-2002 17:51									#136
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Yop a good plan - after all we have the Finnish Ski-troops on our site

	11-05-2002 17:53									#137
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they'd nuke any fleet or army on the way, no civilian losses that would cause a world nuke war after all

	11-05-2002 20:00									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus In the Atlantic you can, though not in the North Sea/Baltic/Med.

You don't think the Israelis would keep the Suez open?

quote: I'm sure Russia will be more than willing to supply us with oil.

Good for you. Wouldn't be enough.

quote: Considering the sheer number of Morrocans living in Europe: unlikely

Considering the 226 year old close relationship with the USA; likely.

quote: Impossible.

Yeah, you guys proved that during the Kosovo campaign....

Oh wait, that's right. It turns out the Europeans have no air capabilities at all! Nevermind.

quote: Impossible without nukes

Replace "Only with France. Impossible with nukes for rest of EU"

quote: Impossible. ETA bombers will get you

Promise them a homeland.

	11-05-2002 20:24									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar You don't think the Israelis would keep the Suez open?

I think that Israël would be busy enough to fight the totality of its neighbors to be able to keep Suez open

quote: Good for you. Wouldn't be enough.

There is still the whole Arab world, which would be more likely to supply UE than US.

quote: Considering the 226 year old close relationship with the USA; likely.

Morocco was colonised by France for a century, and was independant since no more than 50 years. It stills has excellent relationship with France. And I hardly believe that USA had any kind of relationship with Morrocco in 1780's.
Morrocco with UE then.

quote: Yeah, you guys proved that during the Kosovo campaign.... Oh wait, that's right. It turns out the Europeans have no air capabilities at all! Nevermind.

I doubt that the airpower of Europe would be enough against the airpower of USA. Though, to launch the aircraft, US would have to put its carriers in bombing range of Europe. It's easier to sink a carrier than to destroy totality of airports in whole Europe. So I doubt that USA could achieve air control over Europe.

quote: Replace "Only with France. Impossible with nukes for rest of EU"

Well, I suppose it does not ask for a serious answer

quote: Promise them a homeland.

Ever tried to speak logically with a Basque ?

	12-05-2002 00:06									#140
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Does the lack of a unified national identity in Europe preclude their militaries from working well together? Most of them have been NATO allies for 50 years now...

The level of cohesion is still much less than for a single nation military.

operationally there are still issues with language, etc. (NATO documents are done in 11 languages IIRC).

There are issues in terms of command and control. (Basically each country can "appeal orders" up their national chain of command.)

Yes they do have an alliance, some standardization of gear, and hjave done lots of exercises together. It's still not as cohesive as a single EU force would be.

	12-05-2002 00:17									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil I think that Israël would be busy enough to fight the totality of its neighbors to be able to keep Suez open

I think we'd let the Israelis do everything short of popping a nuke if we Thought they'd help keep the Suez open.

quote: There is still the whole Arab world, which would be more likely to supply UE than US.

I also bet the Israelis would bomb llloooottttsssss of Oil facilities in the Persian Gulf Area.

quote: Morocco was colonised by France for a century, and was independant since no more than 50 years. It stills has excellent relationship with France. And I hardly believe that USA had any kind of relationship with Morrocco in 1780's. Morrocco with UE then.

You only think I'm making this up. The King of Morrocco was thefirst soverreign to recognize the United States. Sure, it was "Colonised" by France, but only after the United States tried every trick in the book to prevent that from happening. (the French case was helped along with Muslim terrorists kidnapping a Rockefeller), but like most European colonies, the Moroccoan King was still nominally in power.

quote: I doubt that the airpower of Europe would be enough against the airpower of USA. Though, to launch the aircraft, US would have to put its carriers in bombing range of Europe. It's easier to sink a carrier than to destroy totality of airports in whole Europe. So I doubt that USA could achieve air control over Europe.

Hmmm...could be so. A lot of that statement hinges on the abilities of the European Navies, and I think the only group of Submariners out there that could pull it off are the British. Problem with that, there are not that manyy British subs.

quote: Well, I suppose it does not ask for a serious answer

Dang straight. Damn French....

quote: Ever tried to speak logically with a Basque ?

So glad you can see past Ethnic stereotypes.

	12-05-2002 00:37									#142
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For the EU to even fight this war (even if they wanted to), they'd have to have a lot of major changes to their united government, infrastructure, and dramatically increase the size of their existing military and unite all of them under a common language and command system.

	12-05-2002 01:15									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Promise them a homeland.

They have a homeland, as members of Spain!

	12-05-2002 02:53									#144
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Saint Marcus, Regardless of your point-by-point denial, the U.S. today has the power to do everything I said in my post. The EU doesn't have a chance.

But this really illustrates an important point. The EU really needs to invest more in military to help us out. For example, the EU could not even defeat Iraq by itself, IMHO. It would be nice to see the EU carrying 50% of the load, not 5% as it does now.

BTW, EU support is appreciated.

Ned

	12-05-2002 03:00									#145
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oh yes, we could very well defeat Iraq by ourselves... we wouldn't have the same popular support you guys have, but military-wise it wouldn't be a problem. I think the leaders should make a game out of it. who can defeat a middle east country faster? EU tries Iraq and the US tries Libya, Sudan and Somalia, just for keeping it balanced.

civilian losses don't get counted as long as the games last

	12-05-2002 03:02									#146
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GP: what the war is about MAKES all the difference in the world.

If the war can only be won by destroying the other power it is completely different from a war where you are trying to force a concession.

The method of resisting an invasion is completely different depending on the consequence of the invasion.

If the goal of the EU/US was a war to destroy the other power then every weapon, every method of killing your enemy becomes acceptable. But, if it is merely to force a concession you must temper your actions to avoid provoking the war going to another level.

e.g if the EU used bio-weapons effectively then the USA would be forced to retaliate on a similar scale. To use such weapons esculates the war.


At present we are merely talking about an invasion of a country with no context. An invasion of the EU or USA if it were to the death is a completely different concept from lets say forcing the USA to remove/reduce trade tarrifs on EU goods.


Whether bombing of civilian targets is acceptable or whether the targets are limited to military installations is dependent on what the war is about and what will make an invasion successful.

Foo!


Marcus: the US Air Force wouldn't have much trouble brushing aside European air defence...Britain with one of the more respectable militaries (France has the best, Germany one of the worst) has next to no air defences that could challenge the USAF. If the nature of the war demanded it and the USAF wanted to bomb the major European population centers to dust then they could.

	12-05-2002 03:29									#147
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Oh great! Rearming Europe... I thought you guys have been trying to get out of the imperialism biz...

	12-05-2002 03:31									#148
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LOL, what about the US' armament then?

	12-05-2002 03:39									#149
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Trust me... I don't like the US armament either... I think the U.S. is a military nightmare for the rest of the world, and the sooner its brought down, the happier I'll be. Unfortunately, what the world needs is a some kind of defense force for everybody not where the U.S. gets to make unilateral decisions.

	12-05-2002 03:40									#150
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I despise hegemony, of any kind. And "defending citizens" or "interests" are just an excuse, although the latter excuse is a pretty blunt one.