28-05-2002 06:52									#301
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Sikander, let me give an example.

On campus, last semester, I was invited to become a member of the Black Student League, even though I am white from both sides of family (German descent).
Unfortunately, I lacked real time to become fully involved as a member, so I declined.


When advocacy minority groups invite white supporters, there is no harm or negative consequences.
Just as when gay advocacy groups invite hetero allies to join their organizations.

I am against minority advocacy groups that aggressively excludes whites based purely on their race.

	28-05-2002 07:07									#302
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quote: [SIZE=1]Can you agree that "white people" have the same rights to associate under the constitution that any other group have? I think we can both agree that neither of us has any interest in joining such a group.

No one has ever denied such a right exists. The KKK is constitutionally protected, and that's why they can still hold their little marches. No body here is saying they can't exist.

	28-05-2002 07:11									#303
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Sikander, let me give an example. On campus, last semester, I was invited to become a member of the Black Student League, even though I am white from both sides of family (German descent). Unfortunately, I lacked real time to become fully involved as a member, so I declined. When advocacy minority groups invite white supporters, there is no harm or negative consequences. Just as when gay advocacy groups invite hetero allies to join their organizations. I am against minority advocacy groups that aggressively excludes whites based purely on their race.

While I admire the PR savvy of your local Black Students Association, I can't accept these organizations as positive influences on society just because they allow 'other' members. "Jews for Hitler" is just as worrisome to me as any other pro-Nazi group might be regardless of the ethnic background of its membership. I realize that most of these groups are trying to achieve positive goals, but I dislike the fact that they perpetuate racial differentiation, and with that comes a lot of problems, especially in a country with our history. I'll be happy when these groups go out of business because people have found much more rewarding things to notice about each other and themselves than their racial characteristics.

	28-05-2002 07:13									#304
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I give up Sikander -- you even fail to see the unity of people when minority advocacy groups inviting white people.

However, I have not changed my viewpoint.

	28-05-2002 07:20									#305
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov No one has ever denied such a right exists. The KKK is constitutionally protected, and that's why they can still hold their little marches. No body here is saying they can't exist.

I'm just trying to establish the principle that we are all equal under the constitution. While no one has come out and said that 'whites' do not have this right, when similar questions are put to them very few will positively state that this is within people's rights, and instead go on the attack. I want the people who are all for the NAACP etc. to see the potential for discord these race based political organizations have. They divide the political system into racial enclaves and I fear for our future in a truly multi-ethnic society where these sorts of groups could become our future political parties, and the U.S. Democracy no better than Zimbabwe's.

	28-05-2002 07:24									#306
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Hey Sikander, why didn't you come out to Breck and ski with me?

I could have gotten you a ticket if you don't have the buddy pass.

	28-05-2002 07:30									#307
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Sikander, I was a member of the Black Student club at my college, and it's treasurer my junior year was a white Jew. Their mission was to promote fellowship among Black students, yes, but not at the exclusion of whites. All races were clearly welcomed. The group focused on promoting African-American speakers on campus, holding forums for issues concerning race and civil rights, and acting as an advocate for Black students who felt they had been discriminated against.

The impact of this group was, IMO, overwhelmingly positive. It was not divisive at all. The only people who had a problem with it were the rednecks who used the "n" word to refer the African Americans anyway. Your equating such a group to Nazis is outrageously wrong and offensive. I don't think you have a clue what most Black Student groups do. Go sit in on some meetings at a few campuses.

	28-05-2002 07:31									#308
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander I want the people who are all for the NAACP etc. to see the potential for discord these race based political organizations have.

WE didn't create the discord. Um, i kind of think that was created along time ago. One can not successfully eradicate racism without using the very terms created by the racists. So, what are you advocating? you think if we (ie. minorites) would just forget our identities that they will somehow go away. funny how it's always white people who think we live in a color blind society.

	28-05-2002 07:34									#309
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quote: Originally posted by GP Hey Sikander, why didn't you come out to Breck and ski with me? I could have gotten you a ticket if you don't have the buddy pass.

Gp,

Are you there now? I can get away this weekend perhaps, as my girlfriend is working. I haven't skied in a few years. I skied blue runs almost exclusively when I did. (I moved here more for the climbing.) Or if you want to take a day off from the slopes, come on down to Boulder or Denver and I can show you around.

Just re-reading your post, have you already been here and gone? If so I wasn't aware of that. I've been running around taking care of my family this year that it's entirely possible that the whole episode (and many others) slipped by without me taking any notice.

	28-05-2002 07:39									#310
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Sikander, whites have an equal right to create advocacy groups.

	28-05-2002 07:44									#311
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Sik,

Yeah...it's OBE.

I spent the winter instructing at Breckenridge. Was a thread about it. I didn't contact any Apolytoners though. Other than Makeo who was a fellow ski instructor. Didn't really make the effort. I was way wrapped up in teaching until April.

Blue runs would have been fine. The season is over now anyway. (well maybe A basin has a day or two left.)

	28-05-2002 08:22									#312
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quote: Originally posted by BunnyGrrl WE didn't create the discord. Um, i kind of think that was created along time ago.

Where did I say you (whatever you mean by that) did? The KKK predates the NAACP as a race-based organization committed to the furtherance of it's target group as it saw that group's needs. Both groups emphasize race, one of them effectively and one of them more and more ineffectually because it has overstepped the bounds even a racist society like ours will accept. Both perpetuate a dangerous concept. How will these groups react to a state that is a collection of minorities which will be the case in the latter part of this century? If our political discourse is going to continue to be so heavily laden with racial identity how are we going to get anything done?

quote: Originally posted by BunnyGrrl One can not successfully eradicate racism without using the very terms created by the racists.

Interesting catch-phrase. Sounds really dogmatic. What relevance does it have to this discussion?

quote: Originally posted by BunnyGrrl So, what are you advocating? you think if we (ie. minorites) would just forget our identities that they will somehow go away. funny how it's always white people who think we live in a color blind society.

You cannot forget your identity, you are constantly creating it. Your identity is not something you identify with. It is inherent to you and in constant flux. No one can tell you what your identity is, by subterfuge or brutality. Beware those who try to do so. Your identity is not your body, not your race, not your family, not your history, for these are things that someone else gave you, or circumstance which occurred by chance. What does your affinity for a particular subculture or the color of your skin have to do with such a crucial thing as identity? Nothing, unless you have been deluded into thinking that your purpose on this earth is to grub around in the mud (along with many others) for some sort of worthless (ethnic) pride that has nothing to do with you at all.

Perhaps living in a society which looks at you like some sort of racial commodity (second only to gender in order of identification) has focused your attention on race to such an extent that you allow it to creep into your definition of yourself. This is one of the greatest crimes of our culture. Resist it. I am an individual of mixed race (as we all are really). I lived in Japan for 6 years as a young child, and I was well-aware of my status as an outsider. I am well-aware of how much attention is payed to race in our society. I reject the notion that paying more attention to it is going to bring us from obsession to blissful ignorance on the subject.

edit: Format

	28-05-2002 08:27									#313
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The NAACP was founded in 1911, in a time when lynching of blacks was quasi-legal in the Southern states.

There was, and continues to be, a real, legitimate need for the NAACP.

	28-05-2002 08:56									#314
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's true, under the law, there is genuine racial equality. However, the law is applied unequally. Blacks are far more likely to go to jail for the same crime and more likely to face stiffer penalties for the same crime. It is well known that a Black person who murders a white person is far more likely to get the death penalty than a white person who murders a Black person. Being stopped by the police for BS is so common that there are nicknames for it, DWB, driving while Black. In Florida, a law ostensibly created to weed out ineligible voters (dead people, people who've moved, felons) was applied in such a way is to disproportionately impact Black people. Despite Black people constituting 46 percent of felons (which goes back to differences in being changed and punishment), more than 50 percent of those knocked off the rolls were Black. Equality under the law is meaningless if it isn't praciticed.

A) Cities, where police forces are largest, and where crime is at it's highest, have a much larger population of African Americans then rural areas or suburbs, where crime is less apparent, and police forces are smaller and 'locally' administered.

B) This does not negate the rights for an organization to exist that looks out for whites, or calls itself a name that would imply it, so long as there are organizations that exist to look out for blacks.

quote: When you show me a "white pride" group that isn't a cover for a white supremacy group, then your can claim there is unequal treatment. In theory, yes, white pride should be no more inoquous than Black pride. The reality is that it was started by white supremacists and is overwhelmingly only espoused by white supremacists. I really have to wonder why you keep pushing this point, over and over, despite reality proving that you don't know what you're talking about.

I know what I'm talking about. I'm merely discussing principles...if 'black groups' can exist without being automatically labeled racist, then 'white groups' should be able to exist in the same way. I understand that there have been non-racist 'black groups' yet there has not been (at least, not named in this thread) a 'white group' that was not founded by racists or with racist points of view.

	28-05-2002 08:59									#315
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quote: Originally posted by BunnyGrrl orange don't tell me you are the friend of blacks, and then in the same damn breath, disregard our ****ing personal experiences. Who the hell wants to be bothered with that all the time? Why the hell wouldn't someone want to surround themselves with people who celebrate their humanity rather than degrade it?

What exactly are you responding to? "the friend of blacks" "disregard our ****ing personal experiences"? Where did I say/do this?

quote: And what's up with this Saudi television example? Are blacks somehow not a part of american society?

Did I say that? No.

quote: i know you were using it to make a point, but it was a weird example to use. why not use canada or the uk or something?

why was it weird? There are disproportionate numbers of blacks and whites in America, as there are disproportionate numbers of Muslims and Christians in Saudi Arabia...

	28-05-2002 09:22									#316
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Sikander, I was a member of the Black Student club at my college, and it's treasurer my junior year was a white Jew. Their mission was to promote fellowship among Black students, yes, but not at the exclusion of whites. All races were clearly welcomed. The group focused on promoting African-American speakers on campus, holding forums for issues concerning race and civil rights, and acting as an advocate for Black students who felt they had been discriminated against. The impact of this group was, IMO, overwhelmingly positive. It was not divisive at all. The only people who had a problem with it were the rednecks who used the "n" word to refer the African Americans anyway. Your equating such a group to Nazis is outrageously wrong and offensive. I don't think you have a clue what most Black Student groups do. Go sit in on some meetings at a few campuses.

In my defense I didn't equate the two. I said that a group called "Jews for Hitler" would worry me as much as any other pro-nazi group, just as the fact that I am here arguing with mostly white people about the usefullness of ethnically based organizations worries me. It's not the purported purposes or the actual actions (as always, all apologies for the aliteration) of these groups that worries me the most, it's the fact that they are so effective at perpetuating the subdivision of our society along racial and ethnic lines. The government is just as bad, with its insistence on counting everyone in the census by squeezing them into a few pat racial categories. We need to stop identifying ourselves as members of these groups, and keep our eyes on the bigger picture, which counter-intuitively lies inside of ourselves.

I will state that groups which promote racial identity are often very different from one another. I am aware of the crimes of the KKK and the Nazis, and these groups only share one trait with the other groups who are racially based. IMO that trait is insidious and dangerous, and while the threat from Nazis and Clansmen is receding, I cannot say the same for the impact of other generally decent and law abiding groups who nonetheless do their part to keep America above all, race conscious.

	28-05-2002 09:38									#317
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For my 2 cents, I tend to agree with Sikander. I had a conversation with an old black man in New York once and he taught me a few things about racism. He said that people usually get along fine but there are always the 'leaders' who stir up anamosity by stressing differences between the races. When people stop seeing themselves as black or white or whatever then we will have made some progress. In the mean time, birds of a feather flock together. That is human nature and people ought to be free to associate of disassociate as they please.

	28-05-2002 16:05									#318
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov And again, this just shows what a close-minded idiot you're being about it.

Bah. You're far from best on this board to display dazzlin' shows of vulgarity and profanity, so you'd be best advised to refrain. It's when you actually try to make a point that your readable. Enough of the "you're a moron"-spewing roboposters who think this amounts to a scathing display of wit already. Mind your own signature.

quote: I have read books about the nefarious people of history, like Hitler, Stalin, etc. Understanding them means reading about them.

Pehaps I gives you a warm fuzzy feeling to read about crooks, lunatics and butchers. That's not to unusal - witness the endless fascination mass murder shows seem to supply to the audiences. Nevertheless I respectfully suggest you delude yourself if you think you've reached a deeper understanding of, well, of just about anything reading about people like Hitler and Stalin. The basic dictatorical pattern is simple enough; a charismatic leader promising easy solutions (and finding someone else to blame, preferably), a people who nurture their sense of unfullfiled entitlement and enough turmoil to throw doubts over the sustainablilty of the current system. It's been the same since the French revolution, and I haven't seen any interesting deviations yet. MX fits in this patter just fine, except he chose the wrong interest to push and circumstances didn't work out his way. Nothin' to see here, folks, circulate.
[/QUOTE]

quote: You don't understand MX, you're making assumptions out of your posterior about who he was and what he said. You then start ranting about how it doesn't behoove you to learn anything about them. What a crock of horseshit.

Yes, BG, we know you're in touch with your vocabulary. That's... sophisticated. Well, then, why don't you educate me? Show me pointers to confirm that MX either a) didn't claim all whites were devils or b) actually retracted and deplored that racist bull publicly when and if he actually grew up to a better apporxiamtion of a decent human being.

If you can't, I'm afraid I don't give a damn about understanding him anyway.

quote: Reading a bio on X isn't going to brainwash you...are you afraid your mind is too weak to withstand such a thing? I even read Mein Kampf, and it certainly didn't in any way make me kinder towards Hitler. But it did give me a little insight into who he was and why he did what he did.

Fine, if that's your trip. I'm not especially interested in reading about purveyors of hate, be it rasist, ideological or religeous. I don't particulary strive to be given "insights" to what particular delusion made their clocks tick. Recognizing the pattern and being able to apply it is far more important, and often sadly lacking among those who spend most of their time seraching for various insights.

	28-05-2002 19:11									#319
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln For my 2 cents, I tend to agree with Sikander. I had a conversation with an old black man in New York once and he taught me a few things about racism. He said that people usually get along fine but there are always the 'leaders' who stir up anamosity by stressing differences between the races. When people stop seeing themselves as black or white or whatever then we will have made some progress. In the mean time, birds of a feather flock together. That is human nature and people ought to be free to associate of disassociate as they please.

Wow -- I'm so glad that you found a single black person that represents the entire black society of United States. Congratulations!!


But back to reality --- I am very glad that civil rights activists and their leaders did what they did during the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950's and 1960's --- both, black and white civil rights leaders.

	28-05-2002 20:14									#320
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Wow -- I'm so glad that you found a single black person that represents the entire black society of United States. Congratulations!!

:whine whine whine: Strawman argument you assume he believes that one black man in new york represents all African Americans :whine whine whine: slippery slope :blah blah blah: :whine whine whine: [/MrFun mode]

You're such a hypocrite. You do the same things you whine about. He posted something from experience, and what do you do? Shove it back in his face for being 'unworthy' of recognition. You're the only one that ought to be ashamed of his posting, MrFun.

	28-05-2002 20:30									#321
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Orange, For what it's worth, I had virtualy the same experiences and observations you did 30 years ago. I even had a best friend who was black after college. He did not want to come to my parties and he never invited me to one of his. Go figure. He said he would be uncomfortable. He knew his fellow blacks would be uncomfortable with me.

Since this same pattern has gone on for so long, I doubt it will change anytime soon.

	28-05-2002 21:20									#322
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quote: Originally posted by orange :whine whine whine: Strawman argument you assume he believes that one black man in new york represents all African Americans :whine whine whine: slippery slope :blah blah blah: :whine whine whine: [/MrFun mode] You're such a hypocrite. You do the same things you whine about. He posted something from experience, and what do you do? Shove it back in his face for being 'unworthy' of recognition. You're the only one that ought to be ashamed of his posting, MrFun.

I figured if I can't beat the hypocrite crowd on Apolyton, I might as well join them.

Anyway, I will throw away that straw man argument while you guys continue to use straw man arguments.

	29-05-2002 02:46									#323
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln For my 2 cents, I tend to agree with Sikander. I had a conversation with an old black man in New York once and he taught me a few things about racism. He said that people usually get along fine but there are always the 'leaders' who stir up anamosity by stressing differences between the races.

It's true. Blacks and whites got along fine under slavery and under segregation until "outside agitators" began pointing out that this is not how human beings should live. If only those darned "leaders" hadn't stirred Black people up to demand their rights.

	29-05-2002 02:50									#324
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln For my 2 cents, I tend to agree with Sikander. I had a conversation with an old black man in New York once and he taught me a few things about racism. He said that people usually get along fine but there are always the 'leaders' who stir up anamosity by stressing differences between the races.

Without racial animosity the "reverends" Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson wouldnt have jobs.

	29-05-2002 02:50									#325
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Thanks for backing up what I said, Chegitz.

	29-05-2002 02:51									#326
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Why wouldnt he? Youre both loony.

	29-05-2002 03:05									#327
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Why wouldnt he? Youre both loony.

Hey, watch it -- I have argued with you throughout, without labeling you as a racist!



And if you seriously cannot understand the slave revolts, and the Civil Rights movement, then I see no real reason to continue arguing with you.

	29-05-2002 03:07									#328
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Hey, watch it -- I have argued with you throughout, without labeling you as a racist!

Well I do have to give you credit for that.

quote: And if you seriously cannot understand the slave revolts, and the Civil Rights movement, then I see no real reason to continue arguing with you.

For a gay guy youre awfully serious MrFun, and considering you didnt know who ABBA were I have to ask....are you a closet heterosexual?

	29-05-2002 03:10									#329
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Stop dodging my premise.

You really do not see any legitimacy in slave revolts, and the Civil Rights movement, do you??

	29-05-2002 03:13									#330
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Stop dodging my premise. You really do not see any legitimacy in slave revolts, and the Civil Rights movement, do you??

Jeeez! Of course I do!

Take a chill pill Fun!

You are Fun, dont ever change your name ok? Its so apt!