26-05-2002 22:34									#241
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My point is more related to getting a better understanding of how to thoughtfully interpret historical writings. Rather than a call to specialize.

	26-05-2002 22:43									#242
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quote: Originally posted by BunnyGrrl quote: Originally posted by orange [q]There were reasons in the past for minorities to have groups to protect their rights under law or even to rally for equal rights, but in today's society everyone IS equal under law. Tell that to all the black men on death row for crimes they have been PROVEN not to have committed. oh wait, some of them are already dead. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/smith/

Theres no doubt that a disproportionate number of blacks are on death row. Some of them are there because of police corruption and weaknesses in the legal system. In your example, however, the man was released when it was PROVEN that he was innocent. Isnt that an example of equality under the law? What you're really citing is unequal application of existing laws.

quote: I don't know you personally, so i can't tell you why specific people don't like you. But i can tell you why i tire of the "i've never owned a slave" arguement. No one in this country has owned a slave for 140 years, that has not ended racism against blacks. The men who killed emmit till hadn't owned any slaves either. for that matter, neither had those men in jasper, texas who dragged james byrd to death

.

Inflammatory statements dont help your argument. I'm damn sure we can all cite examples of black against white atrocities too.

quote: When in the company of whites, blacks are very aware that we must set a good example lest our whole race be judged. This is tiring. Being among other blacks can sometimes be a comfort. Not being allowed to show human weakness is very annoying.

This is an interesting viewpoint that I've never heard before. My personal experience is that blacks in the south are pretty much like everybody else, some are good and some are bad. I'd hate to think what those that seem like complete a$$holes would be like if not on their best behaviour.

quote: Being followed and accused a thief when i try to buy milk is tiring. Buying groceries is something you can do everyday and take it for granted. when i go into a store, it can become a political exercise. As a personal aside, i was awarded a scholarship and various need based grants from the school i chose to go to, we were allowed to use our financial aid to pay for purchases in the campus bookstore, but they didn't sell art supplies. when i was asked by my art teacher why i didn't have all of my supplies, i told him i couldn't afford to buy them all at once and asked him why they couldn't be made available in the campus bookstore where i could buy them w/my voucher. He asked me if i was in school on an athletic scholarship. I told him no--art.

Without being to pompous about it, these are the kinds of attitudes that few whites in america have ever faced, and its why they dont understand the resulting responses that develop in blacks when dealing with whites.

	26-05-2002 22:48									#243
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Thank God their lifestyle was destroyed because most who were brought over were already enslaved by their own tribe or kingdom.

No, most Africans were never slaves. And there was virtually no chattel slavery in sub-Saharan Africa. People didn't own other people. There were cases of captured soldiers forced to labour for another kingdom for a period of time, but the "slaves" were not marked as inferior beings to be "owned" in perpituity.

Ignorance is obviously bliss foy you, Caligastia.

	26-05-2002 22:51									#244
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quote: Originally posted by GP My point is more related to getting a better understanding of how to thoughtfully interpret historical writings. Rather than a call to specialize.

Unfortunately, critical thinking does not appear to a part of many schools curriculum. Good grades are a matter of regurgitating the pap that they are fed.

This is not aimed at you in any way MF

	26-05-2002 22:55									#245
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Unfortunately, critical thinking does not appear to a part of many schools curriculum. Good grades are a matter of regurgitating the pap that they are fed. This is not aimed at you in any way MF

Oh goody -- someone who has NOT trolled me!
At first, I thought Cal or SuperSneak were trying to organize an Apolyton lynch mob after me.



But seriously -- when I read other books in my area of interest -- particularly history, I am intelligent enough to see what bias slant the author has, and what really interesting, or good points/insights an author has provided in other instances.

	26-05-2002 23:18									#246
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Its not always easy to know the perspective of the author though. Sometimes its worthwhile to read what you might consider "trash" but where you do know the viewpoint.

	26-05-2002 23:30									#247
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Theres no doubt that a disproportionate number of blacks are on death row. Some of them are there because of police corruption and weaknesses in the legal system. In your example, however, the man was released when it was PROVEN that he was innocent.

He wasn't released; he died in prison. I cite to illustrate that we are not all equal even under the law.

	26-05-2002 23:44									#248
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quote: Originally posted by GP Bunny, you can't hold the Jasper killing against Orange because he is white. That would be like me being anti-black because I was carjacked by a black guy. Its not like we're all on football teams and the whites are all against the blacks and vice versa.

I'm not holding it against him. In some ways, I'm trying to explain a viewpoint which i personnally don't have, but which has been expressed to me (ie. blacks not wanting friendships w/whites)

Some of my examples are extreme because it is hard to articulate neatly what the compounded pressure of facing racism daily does to the spirit.

	26-05-2002 23:49									#249
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good answer...

	26-05-2002 23:51									#250
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quote: Originally posted by orange Well, I would disagree there as well. I can see the distinction between blacks and asians as minorities, as asians do better in school, have higher University attendance rates, and are economically better off than African Americans(statistically speaking, of course) But hispanics are on par, or possibly even lower, in these figures than African Americans.

Umm, i'm not sure are you saying you disagree with my experiences or my analysis of said experience?

	27-05-2002 00:16									#251
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Double post

Last edited by SpencerH on 27-05-2002 at 05:38

	27-05-2002 00:40									#252
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quote: Originally posted by BunnyGrrl He wasn't released; he died in prison. I cite to illustrate that we are not all equal even under the law.

Sorry, I didnt read far enough on that page.

While a tragedy, I still count this as a miscarriage of justice caused by police corruption and poor advocacy rather than an indictment of the system as a whole. It may be inferred that the individuals involved were biased, but thats not the same as the system as a whole.

	27-05-2002 02:59									#253
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH It may be inferred that the individuals involved were biased, but thats not the same as the system as a whole.

IF you want to judge the U.S. justice system look at the man at the top, William Rhenquist, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. He argued for continued segregation when he was a clerk at the Supreme Court during Brown vs. Board of Ed. He has said that he agreed with the Plessy vs. Ferguson decision (saying segregation should be legal). He has owned two properties with racially restrictive covenants in their titles. He also passes (fails) the Jesse Helms test, as Helms said that he was "delighted" that Rhenquist was going to be the Chief Justice. Why would any black man trust Rhenquist and his minions?

	27-05-2002 03:12									#254
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quote: Originally posted by Carver Yes, let's. To say Africa had no nations is completely and absolutely historically inaccurate. Read some history before trying to be "historically accurate".

I never said that, jackass. Go reread my post...I'm sick of wasting my time with PC wankers like you who jump to conclusions and don't actually respond to points made.

	27-05-2002 03:25									#255
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quote: Originally posted by BunnyGrrl I said i was. MX was/is not the only black political leader. MLK spoke of black pride, jjackson speaks of black pride, dubois, etc.

No. You didn't understand...

I'm saying if a new group came out that was about 'white pride' and WASN'T racist and WASN'T founded by white supremacists or former KKK members and worked with other groups to promote equality, would you still be against them?

quote: Tell that to all the black men on death row for crimes they have been PROVEN not to have committed. oh wait, some of them are already dead. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/smith/

How about Roy Criner. Join a group to take away the death penalty, not a black pride group...you'll do more good to change this problem which affects MORE THAN JUST BLACKS!

quote: I spent my college days learning to be a commie; i did not belong to the black student union...i did however have the luck of taking classes w/a wonderful professor who is friends w/angela davis and bell hooks. we read lot of their work and the work of the brothers from havard cornell west (formerly) and henry louis gates jr.

Well then I'll have to find out some other way. I'll look around for some good black student union university websites.

quote: I don't know you personally, so i can't tell you why specific people don't like you.

I'm NOT saying they don't like "me" I'm saying African Americans are MORE likely to keep their close friendships 'black' and not make close friendships with whites. Then you tell me that it's all about how blacks don't trust whites. Don't turn this on me, I get along fine with many African Americans. I'm only trying to figure out why African Americans seem to segregate themselves in society. This is not about me.

quote: But i can tell you why i tire of the "i've never owned a slave" arguement. No one in this country has owned a slave for 140 years, that has not ended racism against blacks.

Real simple - I am not racist. Not against blacks, not against hispanics, not against anyone. So for you to say "most African Americans don't trust whites" means that THEY are being racist against me, or at very least prejudice, because they don't know me yet they already feel they can't trust me. THAT IS WRONG.

quote: The men who killed emmit till hadn't owned any slaves either. for that matter, neither had those men in jasper, texas who dragged james byrd to death.

As stated, you can't blame me or any other white for this simply because they're white. People are people. I liked GPs (or maybe someone else, I forget) example of how he can't have a prejudice against blacks simply if he was car jacked by an African American.

quote: Racism is not a subject in history class that is dead to modern society like the roman empire. Ending segreagation was not about wanting to be friends or live among whites; it was about be able to have the choice to do so; it was mostly about our actual living situation improving. That has only happened a tiny bit. For many stuck in the loop of poverty, that has not happened at all.

I understand this, quite well, but it does NOT justify African Americans being racist or prejudiced against whites NOR does it justify Affirmative Action. Everyone is equal under the written law.

quote: When in the company of whites, blacks are very aware that we must set a good example lest our whole race be judged. This is tiring. Being among other blacks can sometimes be a comfort. Not being allowed to show human weakness is very annoying.

They should be themselves. I don't judge races by one person or even a few. People are people, i judge them on an individual basis. And what you said implies that most blacks are normally inferior to whites, which is why they must put on an 'act' to make themselves seem better than they are.

quote: Being followed and accused a thief when i try to buy milk is tiring. Buying groceries is something you can do everyday and take it for granted. when i go into a store, it can become a political exercise.

Who accuses you of being a thief?

quote: Being lumped into a category of racisct killers may suck for you, but it sucks way worse being in the category of the potential victim.

But I am not the one doing the racial profiling...so I should not be grouped in with those that do. Same thing the other way around.

quote: As a personal aside, i was awarded a scholarship and various need based grants from the school i chose to go to, we were allowed to use our financial aid to pay for purchases in the campus bookstore, but they didn't sell art supplies. when i was asked by my art teacher why i didn't have all of my supplies, i told him i couldn't afford to buy them all at once and asked him why they couldn't be made available in the campus bookstore where i could buy them w/my voucher. He asked me if i was in school on an athletic scholarship. I told him no--art.

So?

	27-05-2002 03:28									#256
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The point you made was to be "historically accurate". My post was completly historically accurate; Caligastia's post was not.

Trying to compare African and European nations to see who is more "primative" was outside of the scope of the argument. The issue raised was weather or not Africans had national identities before being forced into chattel slavery. My post, stating that they did, is historically accurate, dumbass.

	27-05-2002 03:33									#257
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quote: Originally posted by Carver The point you made was to be "historically accurate". My post was completely historically accurate; Caligastia's post was not. Trying to compare African and European nations to see who is more "primative" was outside of the scope of the argument. The issue raised was weather or not Africans had national identities before being forced into chattel slavery. My post, stating that they did, is historically accurate, dumbass.

quote: quote: Yes, let's. To say Africa had no nations is completely and absolutely historically inaccurate. Read some history before trying to be "historically accurate".

The immediate above was directed at me. However, I made no such statement that Africa was not composed of nation states.

Therefore you were saying that what I supposedly said was inaccurate, when I didn't even make the statement.

The fact is, there was and still is today a very large difference between the nations of the Western World and the nations of Africa. During the peak of slavery importing, African nations and tribes did infact sell each other as slaves to the Europeans, who then brought them to America. That alone is proof that 'government' was a much more primitive reality in Africa.

	27-05-2002 03:42									#258
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quote: Originally posted by orange The fact is, there was and still is today a very large difference between the nations of the Western World and the nations of Africa. During the peak of slavery importing, African nations and tribes did infact sell each other as slaves to the Europeans, who then brought them to America. That alone is proof that 'government' was a much more primitive reality in Africa.

If African nations engaged in the slave trade, and European nations engaged in the slave trade, how does that prove that one is more primative than the other? Anyway, I'm not trying to say African nations were as developed as European ones. But Caligastia's remark that they essentially had no national identity is the kind of dehumanizing attitude that allows for atrocities such as slavery.

	27-05-2002 04:28									#259
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quote: Originally posted by moominparatrooper So I take it you reject and deplore the teachings of black leaders such a MX and LF?

So I take it you reject and deplore the teachings of white leaders, such as Adolph Hitler and Pik Botha. Do you see how assinine such a question is? Why are Black people always expected to explain or prove themselves?

By the way, have you read anything Malcolm X ever wrote or said?

	27-05-2002 04:36									#260
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quote: Originally posted by Carver William Rhenquist . . . owned two properties with racially restrictive covenants in their titles.

While in no way wishing to defend this man, restrictive covenents, once included in a property deed, cannot be removed. Much of the older deeds in the US have restrictive covenents. If you live in a major city, you can't get around them. They just have no force of law.

One thing you misses is that Rhenquist was in charge of knocking Black voters off the rolls before he became a judge. He would look for Black voters and challenge their individual registrations, and if it wasn't defneded, the person would lose their right to vote in the upcoming election. It is a strategy still used quite effectively today to ensure Republican victories in elections (i.e., Florida).

	27-05-2002 04:49									#261
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara So I take it you reject and deplore the teachings of white leaders, such as Adolph Hitler and Pik Botha.

You missed the question mark, but I take'll take that as a question anyway. Hope you don't mind. As for the answer, it's an resounding yes - of course I do. I find people who harbour racist options, judging other by their external pigmantation, hair crinkiness or nose profile to be morons. I see no difference between the intellectual and moral rants of people like Hitler, Botha, Malcolm X or Louis Farrakhan, except insofar as to anknowledge that their particular rasist delusions expressed themselves to different degrees. I don't know if these visible differences are signs of intrinsic moral differences or simply manifestations of different circumstances and abilities.

But that's neither here nor there. The point - which frankly I believe you understood perfectly, although you did your best to circumvent it - is that while except for a few deluded nutcases in the Klan or among the working-class Eurotrash neo-nazi, any white person is going to agree with you that Hitler and his ilk were of the bat. I somehow never hear the vocal proponents of state racism to favour minorities express similar distaste over, say, MX. There's always a tendency to spew mealy-mouthed garbage 'bout how we must understand black racism because it's somehow a cultural expression, driven by unfortunate experiences. I don't buy into that. Hence my question.

	27-05-2002 04:52									#262
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Malcolm X moderated his views to a more mainstream later on, which is why he was killed by an extremist.

	27-05-2002 05:04									#263
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Malcolm X never advocated the murder or oppression of whites. For a time he advocated voluntary seperation from white society and he also argued that Blacks should take their rights by what ever means necessary (as any oprressed people have the right to do). After going on the Hadj, he moderated his views and saw that a Black and white coalition was what was needed, in order to free all people. You should learn something about Malcolm X before you compare him to Adolph Hitler.

My point in asking the question is it is assumed that whites do not support people like Adolph Hitler, yet Blacks are constantly asked about Louis Farrakhan. Only a tiny minority of Black people listen to Farrakhan. Yet whites always want to bring him up.

	27-05-2002 05:15									#264
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara My point in asking the question is it is assumed that whites do not support people like Adolph Hitler,

And why should this not be assumed? Do you have any data indicating that assuming the opposite would be sane?

quote: yet Blacks are constantly asked about Louis Farrakhan. Only a tiny minority of Black people listen to Farrakhan. Yet whites always want to bring him up.

As I've already said, what I hear is a lot of explanations and justifications when we bring up black racists. Somehow, outright condemnation of rasist nutcases seems to be difficult for blacks, at least when the racist is on the right side of the fence. Your own attempt to white-wash (if you'll pardon...) MX is a perfect exemple. The man was a racist. Treat him as such.

Until blacks get a lot more bossy about dealing with the trash in their own ranks, I'm afraid they'll have to continue to answer questions about LF.

	27-05-2002 05:20									#265
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Don't you get it????

Malcolm X did away with his racist beliefs as he matured, later on. THEN he was killed by an extremist.

	27-05-2002 05:28									#266
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Malcolm X did away with his racist beliefs as he matured, later on.

I'm not overly impressed with the way he did away with his rasist beliefs. And anyhow, the fact that he once harboured them and wasn't shy expressing them should brand him persona non grata as far as inspiration for others go, even if we cut the man some slack and forgive him personally.

quote: THEN he was killed by an extremist.

Always an occupational risk when you build your power platform by appealing to the basest possible element.

	27-05-2002 05:31									#267
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moom, read a good book about Malcolm X.

	27-05-2002 05:34									#268
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Really, why should I? What kind of relevation can I expect to justify that kind of effort to learn more about a person I hold in contempt?

	27-05-2002 06:19									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Carver Trying to compare African and European nations to see who is more "primative" was outside of the scope of the argument. The issue raised was weather or not Africans had national identities before being forced into chattel slavery. My post, stating that they did, is historically accurate, dumbass.

You are exceedingly sweeping in your inclusion of every future slave in a national group at the least. From what I have read most of the slaves were collected by the more advanced societies (some of which you have mentioned) who had contact with Europeans and Arabs (and often firearms) from often poor and ignorant small groups living on marginal or wild lands in the interior. A European analogue might be Norse raiders taking slaves from Slavic or Celtic peoples who lived in Russia or Ireland in circumstances which were extremely primitive even by the standards of the time. While these people would be demonstrably Celts or Slavs linguistically, it is another thing entirely to ascribe to them a particular nationality, especially when their own terms do not stretch beyond a political system based upon kinship, ie tribalism.

	27-05-2002 06:47									#270
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quote: Originally posted by moominparatrooper Really, why should I? What kind of relevation can I expect to justify that kind of effort to learn more about a person I hold in contempt?

For one thing, you would learn that as one example that proved Malcolm X's moderation of his ideology, he wanted to participate as a speaker at the March on Washington protest, with Martin Luther King Jr. This protest included BOTH whites, and blacks.

X was hoping for an invitation, but never received one from Martin Luther King Jr., for his own reasons that I am not certain about.