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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:19
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quote:
Originally posted by faded glory
Yes, yes, affirmative action never hurt nobody
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,49793,00.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,40199,00.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,33746,00.html
Shame there were thousands of these. I could only pick 3. I wish I could get 100.....but I think ide rather be golfing in an hour. 
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Is that the best you can do? The articles deal with cases that are still before the courts, in other words, whether the plaintiffs have suffered has not yet been proven.
The first article deals with a university where the student body is 98 per cent black, and yet almost half of the profs are not black. Still the non-black profs claim they face discrimination.
In the University of Michigan case, IIRC, the university argues that colour is simply one of many factors that are considered when people are being assessed for administration.
Universities routinely have a policy of giving a preference to people whose parents are alumni. Funny how we don't hear people complaining about this type of discrimination.
Universities also routinely give preference to people from certain geographical areas. Again, we don't hear people complaining about this type of discrimination.
With regards to AA, we are faced with choosing between two evils: we can let a form of racism that serves no good to exist or we can choose a form of racism that is design to reach a positive goal of equality.
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orange
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It doesn't matter what your name is!
Feb 2000
time: 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by BunnyGrrl
Your initial question was answered, quite well i might add, on the first page of this thread. Many flame wars later, the subject became more about the legitmacy of black pride v. white pride. |
Complex questions are never answered in one post, or even 30.
I don't think it's about the legitimacy of black pride v. white pride, I think it's about double standards.
quote:
When black pride is about killing and/or subjugating members of other races , i am a firm opponant. white pride is never about being glad that white people have such a great society and ONLY that. |
But if it was, would you and the others still be against it?
Don't get me wrong here, I don't see a need for any kind of 'racial' or 'sexual prefernece' based pride...but I don't like double standards that one type or pride is pride, and another type of pride is racism. There were reasons in the past for minorities to have groups to protect their rights under law or even to rally for equal rights, but in today's society everyone IS equal under law.
Now, in practice people may not be equal, and I understand that, which is why I do see a need for organizations to keep an eye on things, to make sure that equality is being practiced. However, when organizations are racially named IE "Black student Union" what you do is ostracize those who would otherwise participate in the cause.
I have said that I don't know what black student unions do/discuss...I don't know if you have attended university in the past, and if so, if you were a member of the black student union...but if you were I'd certainly like to hear about it. What goes on, what the goals are, etc...
I also feel that if groups like the NAACP exist to protect African Americans against what they see as crimes against them, then a group such as the NAAWP should not automatically be labeled 'racist' ONLY because it's goal is to protect the interests of whites. If through it's policies and goals the organization proves to be racist, then by all means it can be labeled as such.
White pride in and of itself is not a racist thing.
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White pride is about white supremacy (which of course is still very alive and well). |
That's not entirely true. Though in practice it may have been used to promote organizations such as the KKK, etc. that does not necessarily mean that all white pride is racism...else I say that black pride is racism becuase of people like Malcom X and groups like the Black Panthers.
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Believe it or not, there are very many black people who consider white people not to be trusted. Many feel that given the chance, any white person would sell them up the river if push came to shove. Given that world view, it is not surprising that many black people would not choose to become friends with white people. |
WHY? Why would an African American not trust me, someone who has never owned a slave, someone who has never supported unequal rights, someone who doesn't even care about skin color simply becuase I'm white. Isn't that JUST AS RACIST as a white person not trusting a black person simply because he/she is black??? Isn't that an AWFUL preconception to judge all whites by?
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You can not live in a world where most people still call black people morally and intellectually inferior and expect blacks to wholehartedly and with no reservations embrace every white person who approaches them without a noose. |
Oh please, 'most people'?? I want to know what area of the US you live in where 'most people' consider blacks to be intellectually and morally inferior.
And I still say it's just as racist to judge a white on his color the way you say blacks do, as it is to judge an african american on his color the way you imply whites do.
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Most racism these days is subtle and harder to root out. |
Such as...
quote:
And if i sound a bit militant it is because i am. Having white friends (including and especially my bf) has made me see first hand the EXTREMELY different way this country treats blacks v. whites v. latinos v. asians...etc. It was only in another country did i feel entirely american and not black first. (and by black people's standards, i aint very black ) |
Well, I would disagree there as well.
I can see the distinction between blacks and asians as minorities, as asians do better in school, have higher University attendance rates, and are economically better off than African Americans(statistically speaking, of course)
But hispanics are on par, or possibly even lower, in these figures than African Americans.
Ultimately I feel that no law should be made to help a single racial group better itself, whites blacks hispanics orientals whatever...however I DO support the redistribution of wealth to areas of lower education/poverty/crime/etc. to balance the scales, becuase I don't feel that equal opportunity exists amongst economic classes. I DO feel that racially, equality exists in America, and in cases where it doesn't, appropriate action through the law can be and almost always is taken.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:19
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quote:
Originally posted by orange
Oh please, 'most people'?? I want to know what area of the US you live in where 'most people' consider blacks to be intellectually and morally inferior.
I can see the distinction between blacks and asians as minorities, as asians do better in school, have higher University attendance rates, and are economically better off than African Americans(statistically speaking, of course)
But hispanics are on par, or possibly even lower, in these figures than African Americans.
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Can you provide proof to back up your statements? If not then you have provided proof that blacks are considered to be intellectually inferior.
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MrFun
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of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:19
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Orange, you want some examples, ok:
1) Cal and GP are two specific people who have presented my claims with their own words so as to create straw man arguments by claiming that I support something that I really do not support.
2) Imran had to correct someone on the top of page 7 to make sure no one would create a straw man argument out of his comment.
3) There are two or three people on this thread, and on my my thread who seem to be increasingly adept at calling me names instead of arguing legitimately. I have not called anyone whom I disagree with, on this thread, or my thread, any names.
4) There are some people who are using the extreme form of black supremacy, and trying to apply this to the mainstream, moderate black pride organizations, which is another form of a straw man argument.
quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
For all this, white pride should be treated like Black pride crap, no one has yet pointed to a single white pride group that isn't a white supremicist organization. The difference is not in the potential, it is in the reality. Orange as long as you're defending the NAAWP, why don't you defend the Ayran Nations, the Ku Klux Klan, and the Nazis. The NAAWP is not a white pride group like the Black Panthers were a Black pride group. It is a white supremicist organization founded by David Duke and Bo Gritz (one the former head of the KKK and the other the head of the white supremacists Populist Party--and who also thinks that the Rambo movies are about him). |
Thanks for this information, Chegitz. Now I am more convinced than ever about the wastefulness of the NAAWP since this organization was founded by white supremacists.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by orange
MrFun - Henry Ford was a known anti-semite. Does that make his corporation a waste? |
While he was in charge he funded the Nazis in Germany. Under the Nazi regime, Ford Europe used slave labor. You can't use this example to try and disassociate a known white supremacy group from its white supremicist founders. It's not that old of an organization, and it was part and parcel of Duke and Gritz's attempt to make white supremacy more respectable by saying it's really only about whie pride. Of course, when he didn't think he was being recorded, Duke said (not the exact quote), Now you boys now I wanna string up a nigger like the rest of you, but I can't go saying that in public.
I am serious. As long as you continue to defend that organization, you may was well defend the Klan, which also says it's only about white pride, as well as the White Aryan Resitence and other such white pride groups. If you'd studied hate groups like I have, you'd be well aware that white pride has been nothing more than a code word for white supremacy since day one. You cannot seperate the two.
Sorry your response got eaten.
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BunnyGrrl
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of disputes
May 2002
time: 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by orange
But if it was, would you and the others still be against it? |
I said i was. MX was/is not the only black political leader. MLK spoke of black pride, jjackson speaks of black pride, dubois, etc.
quote:
There were reasons in the past for minorities to have groups to protect their rights under law or even to rally for equal rights, but in today's society everyone IS equal under law. |
Tell that to all the black men on death row for crimes they have been PROVEN not to have committed. oh wait, some of them are already dead. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/smith/
quote:
I have said that I don't know what black student unions do/discuss...I don't know if you have attended university in the past, and if so, if you were a member of the black student union...but if you were I'd certainly like to hear about it. What goes on, what the goals are, etc... |
I spent my college days learning to be a commie; i did not belong to the black student union...i did however have the luck of taking classes w/a wonderful professor who is friends w/angela davis and bell hooks. we read lot of their work and the work of the brothers from havard cornell west (formerly) and henry louis gates jr.
quote:
WHY? Why would an African American not trust me, someone who has never owned a slave, someone who has never supported unequal rights, someone who doesn't even care about skin color simply becuase I'm white. Isn't that JUST AS RACIST as a white person not trusting a black person simply because he/she is black??? Isn't that an AWFUL preconception to judge all whites by? |
I don't know you personally, so i can't tell you why specific people don't like you. But i can tell you why i tire of the "i've never owned a slave" arguement. No one in this country has owned a slave for 140 years, that has not ended racism against blacks. The men who killed emmit till hadn't owned any slaves either. for that matter, neither had those men in jasper, texas who dragged james byrd to death.
Racism is not a subject in history class that is dead to modern society like the roman empire. Ending segreagation was not about wanting to be friends or live among whites; it was about be able to have the choice to do so; it was mostly about our actual living situation improving. That has only happened a tiny bit. For many stuck in the loop of poverty, that has not happened at all.
When in the company of whites, blacks are very aware that we must set a good example lest our whole race be judged. This is tiring. Being among other blacks can sometimes be a comfort. Not being allowed to show human weakness is very annoying.
Being followed and accused a thief when i try to buy milk is tiring. Buying groceries is something you can do everyday and take it for granted. when i go into a store, it can become a political exercise.
Being lumped into a category of racisct killers may suck for you, but it sucks way worse being in the category of the potential victim.
As a personal aside, i was awarded a scholarship and various need based grants from the school i chose to go to, we were allowed to use our financial aid to pay for purchases in the campus bookstore, but they didn't sell art supplies. when i was asked by my art teacher why i didn't have all of my supplies, i told him i couldn't afford to buy them all at once and asked him why they couldn't be made available in the campus bookstore where i could buy them w/my voucher. He asked me if i was in school on an athletic scholarship. I told him no--art.
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25-05-2002 12:05
I'll try to get around to retyping it sometime soon 
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