23-05-2002 23:54									#1
	Unspoken black/white segregation: Choice or societal structure? Put an end to popups!

A little retrospect on my first year at uni here.

First some background: I attended a typical suburban school where only between 40 and 50 kids were African American of a school of about 1,200 people (grades 10-12). Most of them were either Basketball/Football stars who hung around with the typical jerky jock crowd, or fell into other assorted groups such as gangs, druggies, or the Malcom X 'we hate whites' group. One in the grade above me was an audiovisual guru, funny as hell, and student council president I believe for his class...I talked to him occasionally, but not often, mostly just joking around when I went to visit other friends in AV. So yes, I don't have much experience with being close friends with African Americans, but not by choice as I am not a racist.

Now in college, my current RA lives right across the hall from me, is african american, and we get along great. In fact, we talk often, and I recently found out that he plays Age of Empires competatively (as do I). Very nice guy, friendly, talkative...graduates this year. I'll be taking his position

This all has a point, I assure you...the University of Delaware is very culturally diverse, there are many more African Americans than my high school, by number and percent of the total population....this year, through various campus activities and such, I took notice of a normal part of society that you probably see every day and don't put much thought into.

African Americans hang out with African Americans.

Not only this, but they all seem to know each other by name. If you see two African Americans walking up to each other on the street in a University, 90% chance they'll know each other, give greetings, chat for a bit, and then as they leave one will tell the other that they will give them a call...

...however, I have rarely if ever seen the same thing happen with an African American and a white.

Why is this? And more importantly - is this a sign that racial segregation still exists in society, or is it a sign that African Americans simply prefer to hang out with African Americans? In other words, what is the root cause of this phenomenon.

Am I saying it's a bad thing? Certainly not...honestly, as long as there are no laws creating the segregation, I couldn't care either way...people are people and they'll be with/talk to who they want to. And of course there are many cases of inter racial mingling, especially within the athletic realm of University society, and even my flatmate nextdoor is in an interracial relationship right now (he being white, her being black).

I will post my thoughts in a bit...particularly interested in hearing Chegitz's thoughts, but all comments welcome of course, as always.

Some ideas to get us started...
Black Student Unions
Socio-economic differences of African Americans and Whites
Suburbanites and rural whites not being in contact with many African Americans
Last of the 'racist generation' (Pre-baby boomer) haven't died off yet.
African Americans simply have different interests than whites

	23-05-2002 23:55									#2
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A little of column A and a little of column B.

	23-05-2002 23:56									#3
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Birds of a feather flock together. Its only natural.

	23-05-2002 23:56									#4
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bah, I write all that and that's all YOU have to say. I expected a friggin' novel!

	24-05-2002 00:01									#5
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You're just realizing now, that there is voluntary, social segregation??

	24-05-2002 00:04									#6
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no...read it again dumbass

	24-05-2002 00:08									#7
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quote: Originally posted by orange bah, I write all that and that's all YOU have to say. I expected a friggin' novel!

In my personal experience, Black folks who get to college are very cliquish. I wasnt just being silly when I said that. There are a number of reasons, ranging from just liking to hang with people who've had similar experiences as you, to not wanting to have to put up with white stupidity. The only real strctural segregation I saw was the Greek system. White frats were white, Black frats were Black.

I'm sure you want me to go into more detail, also.

While your university is far more diverse than your high school, I'm willing to go out on a limb and guess that's it's still motly a white institution? Yes? Well, consider that for many Black students this is their first time in a largely white environment. It is rather disorienting, about like spengin large amounts of time as a white person in largely Black environments. You look for the familiar for support and grounding.

On the other hand, you have to deal with a lot of white people who want to know all about the "Black experience" or who think they know all about Black people, and want to tell every Black person all about it or who think that Black people are really cool and want to hang out with you all the time. After a while it gets to be a bit much.

And, a lot of Black people really don't like white folks very much. There's resentment over how easy it has been for some white folks to resentment over racism, real and perceived. Some Black people don't like the way we smell. We act goofy. We talk funny. We act disrepectful, etc. A lot of things that are appropirate in "white culture" are completely inappropriate in Black culture.

There's also some social responsibility. Having made it this far, a lot of Black students look out for one another to help them make. Just like, say, Korean Grocier Associations, Black students try and help each other out to try and lift their group as a whole.

	24-05-2002 00:10									#8
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Friggen novel? Why write a friggen novel when Che summed it up so nicely in that one phrase?

Different strokes for different folks, man. Some people do segregate themselves, whether it's based on race, politics, religion, whathaveyou. Some people segregate based on academics. For the last three years of my undergrad career, the people who lived in my apartment:

My pasty white ass.
A black guy from a different Detroit suburb, by far the funniest and most friendly person I've ever known. Currently at Harvard Med School.
A white Hispanic guy from a rural Michigan town, by far the smartest person I've ever known, currently in the M.D./Ph.D. program at Harvard.
And an Asian guy (Tiawanese) from Delaware, nearly as funny and friendly as the first guy, and nearly as smart as the second guy, currently at Johns Hopkins Med.

Pretty good training for me; I was the dumbest mofo in the apartment, and now I'm the dumbest mofo at UM Med. And while we all shared the same academic interests, we all had separate interests and friends outside of the pre-med cohort we all hung around in.

Criminy, I'm rambling... bottom line, it's nothing to get your panties in a bunch about.

	24-05-2002 00:16									#9
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Hey Orange -- no need to call anyone names.

As for the "racist generation", it does not matter when the day comes, that they are all dead and gone.

Racism is perpetual -- or what specifically, do you mean by the racist generation?

	24-05-2002 00:36									#10
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you're right, I'm sorry...just seemed like you only took one sentence of all that I wrote up there.

What I mean is, the last generation that lived through a time where racism was not only accepted, but in some places law protected, are still alive. As they die off, racism will go down exponentially. Their sons and daughters will be half as racist, their grandchildren 1/4 as racist, and so forth until we've only got a few dumb ****s running around who still believe in white supremacy and all that crap. We would be the grandchildren or great grand children in some cases, where we're a lot less likely to be racist, but there still are some racist people in our generations.

	24-05-2002 00:42									#11
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quote: Originally posted by orange you're right, I'm sorry...just seemed like you only took one sentence of all that I wrote up there. What I mean is, the last generation that lived through a time where racism was not only accepted, but in some places law protected, are still alive. As they die off, racism will go down exponentially. Their sons and daughters will be half as racist, their grandchildren 1/4 as racist, and so forth until we've only got a few dumb ****s running around who still believe in white supremacy and all that crap. We would be the grandchildren or great grand children in some cases, where we're a lot less likely to be racist, but there still are some racist people in our generations.

Apology accepted -- mine was a dumb-ass remark, I guess.

Yeah -- we can't forget the continuation of neo-Nazi groups, Aryan Nation groups, and the traditional Ku Klux Klan. They will always find members in every succeeding generation.

	24-05-2002 00:52									#12
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If blacks want to stick together its ok, but if whites do its racist

	24-05-2002 01:01									#13
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Cal, I rate your poor quality troll 0.25 out of 10.

I thought you were good at trolling, but I guess I was mistakened.

	24-05-2002 01:02									#14
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but you see, Cal is right, in his own pointblank way. If a bunch of whites say they want to hang out with whites because they can relate better, it's racist. But if a bunch of blacks do the same thing, they're elevating their racial status. It's a bullshit double standard.

	24-05-2002 01:06									#15
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I disagree Orange.

It does not matter either way to me if blacks want to hang out with mostly other blacks, and whites want to hang out with mostly other whites.

To me, it's not necessarily racist for either group.
Let's look at another example of minority group social behavior --

most gays prefer going to a gay bar, to associate with other gays, while most heteros prefer going to a straight bar, to associate with heteroes. Does this mean that those heteroes are homophobic or heterosexist??

Of course not.

	24-05-2002 01:12									#16
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unless the purpose it to find a mate - of course not, I agree...

but the underlying message of a white person saying "Yeah, I mostly hang out with whites because they're like me" is "RACIST" while the underlying message of a black person saying "yeah, I mostly hang out with blacks because they're like me" is "Cultural support"

	24-05-2002 01:18									#17
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quote: Originally posted by orange but the underlying message of a white person saying "Yeah, I mostly hang out with whites because they're like me" is "RACIST" while the underlying message of a black person saying "yeah, I mostly hang out with blacks because they're like me" is "Cultural support"

exactly.

MrFun, do you think this organisation is racist?
http://naawp.net/
If you dont, then there are plenty of others who do, simply because the organisation is white.

	24-05-2002 01:19									#18
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I understand the argument, Orange.

But I still say that most people would not see any prevelant racism in either case.

	24-05-2002 01:22									#19
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yes they would
http://www.adl.org/poisoning_web/naawp.html

	24-05-2002 01:24									#20
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Cal -- I checked the website.

To me, it sounds like it's a redneck, hill-billie club based on paranoia and wasteful white pride.

White pride has been celebrated for the last 500 years, already.
It's a wasteful club, but not necessarily racist.

	24-05-2002 01:26									#21
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Your own predjudice shows MrFun, your scorn for white pride proves you are a self-hating white. You would never talk this way about a black pride group

	24-05-2002 01:27									#22
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My basic point in bringing the issue up is this...

African Americans are segregating themselves from whites through things like Black Student Unions, and all black groups of friends, which only hurts them as far as their relations with society go. I'd feel the same way about a white guy saying "hey, you want to hang out" as I would if an African American said the same thing to me, but you don't have that. And why? It seems that the reason why is because they want to support each other...well that's only going to make the society seem racist when in fact it would not be otherwise.

I know there's lots of people who don't care about race, people are people, you may like 'em you may not, but they never really get a chance to hang out with African Americans because they seem to want to segregate themselves in their own way.

It's not their fault, but I ask why? Why does this happen?

	24-05-2002 01:30									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Your own predjudice shows MrFun, your scorn for white pride proves you are a self-hating white. You would never talk this way about a black pride group

I see no need for NAAWP -- therefore, to me, it seems to be wasteful.

Again, white pride has been celebrated for the past 500 years, and now whites like you seem to be whining that this ego-stroking party is about to end.

I am not a self-hating white person, BTW.

	24-05-2002 01:31									#24
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the NAAWP borders racism, definitely, because of a few beliefs taken straight from their website, including "High birth rates of minorities will soon make them control the government. We can't let this happen" etc.



...but I don't have a problem saying that Malcom X was an idiot, becuase his views are even worse than that....and I shouldn't be labeled a racist because of it.

	24-05-2002 01:32									#25
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I have noticed this kind of segregation, but I am not entirely sure what the reason is behind it, it doesn't seem to be a thing of 'hate those whites' but simply identification and common experience. I used to have a lot of friends at university who were Indian and they seemed to associate with each other a lot. But then again, I never had any problems associating with them as well, they were always very friendly and outgoing.

I don't actually think it is a thing of discrimination but identification; common problems in their life which they want to overcome.

	24-05-2002 01:32									#26
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Again, white pride has been celebrated for the past 500 years, and now whites like you seem to be whining that this ego-stroking party is about to end.

for me it's the opposite. I don't think there's a need for either. And who cares how long it's gone on. There was no 'white pride' groups, it was simply white Europeans who had the most control.

White pride and Black pride are both the same thing, and shouldn't be differentiated simply because one is of a group that is historically on top, while the other is a group that is historically mistreated.

	24-05-2002 01:39									#27
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Orange, you can certainly disagree with an ideology of a black activist and not be called racist.

	24-05-2002 01:42									#28
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Well it's detrimental that people of only one group would only be with that group (ie- black universities... the graduates won't be ready for the diverse world as well as someone who went to a standard state school).

But I wouldnt say that blacks like blacks cause they have the same skin tone. That is plain not true, except in a very small racist minority maybe. Rather, people tend to be with people whom they encountered at an early age. Someone's family, for example, is of the same race as that person so they end up later in life being around their own race because of their early experiences. Add in the neighbourhood situation (where many neighbourhoods are predominantly one race) and similiar economic background (both of which result in similiar tastes and concerns) and there you go as to why people of one group congregate with people of that same group. A neighbourhood with 50/50 black and white would prevent these people from being around only their race, but they would still be around people with the same tastes and concerns common to that neighbourhood.

And where do mixed people belong in all this?


thanks

	24-05-2002 01:48									#29
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oh yeah and Orange... Malcolm X moderated his views before his death which was why he was shot by his own follower... The basic ideas of Malcolm X in my mind were legitimate and not particularily hateful. Take Farrakhan for example... He has a bad habit of painting the black man as a God and whites as devils but you can't argue with his basic premise of having black men take responsibility for their actions and live moral lives as good muslims. It's Farrakhan's moral concern that is legitimate and should be listened to, not by blacks, but by all people.

(but then again... A good bit of the KKK's idealogy is legitimate Christian values. Damn... people sure love to ruin a good idealogy with racism or extremism. dont they?)


thanks

	24-05-2002 01:53									#30
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It just shows that you should look beyond religion for your morals and ethics.