24-05-2002 08:13									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

bullsh!t. I don't only want to hang out with whites. I would love to hang out with blacks. But they have no desire to hang out with me. Although most whites don't want to hang out with me as well .

I hate it when people turn things around to make me look like a racist because I'm white. I can't help it if no black person wants to be friends with me.

	24-05-2002 08:24									#62
	Remove this text

MrFun: You walk a dangerous road. Most people agree that denigrating one arbitrarily formed group is somethingism and bad. But isn't raising one arbitrarily formed group up the same thing, and imply that the other groups are worse (the "pride" movements?)? I myself have no problem with gay equality, although gay pride implies that there's something special, different, and great about being gay- when I thought half the point of some of the early crusaders was "we're just the same as everybody else."

Re Black culture being mangled by slavery: I have no doubt that this is true. However... this is an open ended question, but what is culture? And why should I or any other person adopt a certain culture just because our great great grandparents had it, but in the intervening time didn't? I'd rather choose my own culture based off of my own decisions. Now I don't deny people's rights to use whatever "culture" they want, but I sure hope that the pitch they hear has nothing to do with being obligated to do so on the basis of their skin color.

	24-05-2002 08:30									#63
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I have to side with Mr. Fun on that one. That isn't the definition of pride. I could copy and paste it, but I'd sound like an a$$hole doing that (well more of an as$hole anyways)

but I must add that my ancestors culture was mangled when coming to this country. For one they were forced to adopt an american name. I have no idea what my name is supposed to be. And I won't even go into my ancestors religion that was not accepted in the U.S.

	24-05-2002 08:30									#64
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Guynemer What DetroitDave, Carver, and Tingkai said. Orange, I used to think just like you when I was 18 or 19. You're young, and still learning.

Guynemer...with all due respect...don't ever say anything like this to me again.

My opinions and thoughts are just as valid as anyone elses, age has nothing to do with it.

and Tingkai's comments shouldn't be directed at me, becuase I have said no such things to which his rebuttal is directed.

	24-05-2002 08:33									#65
	Increase Your PM Length

Well, most black people don't have the luxury of knowing who their great great grandparents were, let alone what their original family name was. I consider the yearning for blacks to re-affirm their lost culture comparable to the Jewish people seeking to document the Holocaust through the Shoah project and the like. Histories get lost in a homogenized culture, and cultures marginalized. It isnt just about attaching a set of cultural values based on skin color.

	24-05-2002 08:34									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Dissident bullsh!t. I don't only want to hang out with whites. I would love to hang out with blacks. But they have no desire to hang out with me. Although most whites don't want to hang out with me as well . I hate it when people turn things around to make me look like a racist because I'm white. I can't help it if no black person wants to be friends with me.

Why would you "love" to hang out with blacks?

	24-05-2002 08:36									#67
	Support Apolyton

hey I like black women O.K. The more I'm around the better chance I have to score . I've only been with one . But of course it would be racist to say I prefer black women over white women. Let's just say I like them each for seperate reasons .

	24-05-2002 08:38									#68
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Carver Italian-American societies are fine, Irish-American societies are fine, German-American societies are fine...but African-American? No, when it comes to African-American hyphenated terms are bad, that's when we're all supposed to just be American. Right.

Absolutely not.

You're trying to turn this into a racist's rant, and it is no such thing.

And besides, it's just the opposite...Black student unions are a norm, white student unions are racist and unheard of.

I don't feel there should be either, why not just a student union, or student unions based on common interests...

You can have a student union of people who enjoy rap music, and that wouldn't be racist, or a student union of people who like to debate, and that wouldn't be racist, or a student union of people who like playing computer games, and that wouldn't be racist...

...but WHY base a student union on race? It implies all black people share the same interests and all like each other, but how can that be since all people are PEOPLE.

On a somewhat related note, why is everything "African American" yet there are "Black" fraternities and "Black" Student Unions?

Also - why would any non-black join a 'black student union'? Doesn't the name REPRESENT all that is racial segregation??

	24-05-2002 08:39									#69
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

sounds like a good place to meet women. I think I'll join a black student union.

	24-05-2002 08:40									#70
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by DetroitDave Well, most black people don't have the luxury of knowing who their great great grandparents were, let alone what their original family name was. I consider the yearning for blacks to re-affirm their lost culture comparable to the Jewish people seeking to document the Holocaust through the Shoah project and the like. Histories get lost in a homogenized culture, and cultures marginalized. It isnt just about attaching a set of cultural values based on skin color.

So have a society for Holocaust historians, not a "Jewish American society"

	24-05-2002 08:40									#71
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Dissident hey I like black women O.K. The more I'm around the better chance I have to score .

Now that I can understand.

	24-05-2002 08:41									#72
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Dissident sounds like a good place to meet women. I think I'll join a black student union.

You know...

Next year, I think I'm going to do just that. Becuase I'll be honest - I don't KNOW what they discuss. I don't know what the purpose of the student union is. So I'm going to do just that, I'm going to find out...even though I think it contributes to segregation.

	24-05-2002 08:42									#73
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Why would you "love" to hang out with blacks?

quote: quote: JERRY [is re-dialing] Should 'ave talked to her; I love Chinese women. ELAINE Isn't that a little racist? JERRY If I like their race, how can that be racist?..

~Seinfeld

	24-05-2002 08:44									#74
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Dissident sounds like a good place to meet women. I think I'll join a black student union.

I knew some white guys who joined the Chinese-Canadian club at my old uni, partially to pick up women, but mainly because they were learning Cantonese.

The other great thing about the cultural clubs is that they would celebrate their holidays with good parties, free food, and you were really lucky, free booze.

	24-05-2002 09:11									#75
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by orange You know... Next year, I think I'm going to do just that. Becuase I'll be honest - I don't KNOW what they discuss. I don't know what the purpose of the student union is. So I'm going to do just that, I'm going to find out...even though I think it contributes to segregation.

Most likely they discuss the same things you do. Although I sure feel out of place around my sister-in-laws male relatives. They like football and I don't.

	24-05-2002 09:13									#76
	Support Apolyton

Ethelred - if that's so, why do they need to call it a "black student union" to do so If not, then I wonder what they would discuss...and I still don't think they need a "black student union" to do it.

	24-05-2002 09:14									#77
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Hell, they could ****ing call it a "Diversity club" or something like that, and do the EXACT SAME THINGS (assuming a black student union aims to promote diversity, which is what I gather...) without making it seem like 'black only'

I'd join a diversity club, I would be much less likely to join a "Black student Union" because I'd feel automatically outcast from the start! As would any other non-African-American!

	24-05-2002 09:38									#78
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I was only saying what is a likely topic of discussion.

Other topics are likely as well. It depends on how political the group is.

	24-05-2002 10:04									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by SnowFire MrFun: You walk a dangerous road. Most people agree that denigrating one arbitrarily formed group is somethingism and bad. But isn't raising one arbitrarily formed group up the same thing, and imply that the other groups are worse (the "pride" movements?)? I myself have no problem with gay equality, although gay pride implies that there's something special, different, and great about being gay- when I thought half the point of some of the early crusaders was "we're just the same as everybody else."

What obstacles have white men overcome due to discrimination because of their race in the last 500 years??
NONE

What obstacles have heterosexuals overcome due to discrimination because of their sexual orientation??
NONE

So, my question is this -- what do white men have reasons to celebrate their identity? What do heterosexuals have reasons to celebrate their identity?

This is where I do not understand white pride or straight pride. To me, it just seems that these were started out of spiteful mockery of acknowledgement of black culture, and affirmation of gay identity. That all it seems to me --- spiteful mockery of the legitimate groups, communities, and organizations for MINORITY groups.

	24-05-2002 10:28									#80
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by MrFun What obstacles have white men overcome due to discrimination because of their race in the last 500 years?? NONE

Not into sports are you?

White men can't jump.

White men can't sprint.

I had a coach tell me that blacks were faster because they had a longer leg muscle. At the same time that an Italian had the 200 meter sprint record and shortly after a Russian won the Olympic Gold in the 100 meters.

Well you asked.

quote: What obstacles have heterosexuals overcome due to discrimination because of their sexual orientation?? NONE

Nerves.

quote: So, my question is this -- what do white men have reasons to celebrate their identity? What do heterosexuals have reasons to celebrate their identity?

Mostly because they are feeling put upon but thats only for the non-racists. Last I saw white pride is mostly just another way to say Nazi.

Still white men really can jump and sprint but the American coaches have racist thinking clogging up their minds.

quote: This is where I do not understand white pride or straight pride. To me, it just seems that these were started out of spiteful mockery of acknowledgement of black culture, and affirmation of gay identity. That all it seems to me --- spiteful mockery of the legitimate groups, communities, and organizations for MINORITY groups.

People feel left out. That you should understand.

Not that I understand white pride organizations. We can always join the Masons or if you are Catholic the Knights of Columbus which my dad belonged too.

I never a saw a black Mason. Does anyone know if that has changed?

	24-05-2002 11:11									#81
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I've never understood something about these various "pride" movements, ex. black, gay, ect. How does one go about being proud of something that they have/claim to have no control over? That seems more than a bit narcissistic to me.

	24-05-2002 11:15									#82
	Got spare money?

I'm sorry, but white men can't jump

	24-05-2002 11:28									#83
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by MrFun What obstacles have white men overcome due to discrimination because of their race in the last 500 years?? NONE

Jews are white. Arabs are white. Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians are white. Fins are white. Norweigans are white. Danes are white.

I would argue that all of these groups have gone under oppression in the past. So, it's ok to have Jewish pride, but not white pride. Well then, shall we say that it's ok to have Nigerian pride, but not black pride? How about a Malian student union, or a cameroonian sorority.

You're absolutely off your nut. You think that the only people that can be oppressed are American minorities, and that's a load of bullshit. Every race has gone through hardships, some worse than others, but that does NOT justify having some pride good and some pride bad. If Africans can be proud of their heritage, than so can I damnit. No one choses who they are or where their ancestors came from, but if you're going to set a standard for one that standard better apply on a universal scale.

quote: What obstacles have heterosexuals overcome due to discrimination because of their sexual orientation?? NONE

You don't know that for a fact. I'm sure there are cases of a heterosexual being shunned from being friends with a homosexual by other homosexuals. Just because it's not something you hear about doesn't mean it hasn't happened. And I STILL don't see why you can be proud of something you supposedly don't have any control over anyway. And if you think for one second that Homosexuals have gone through major oppression, comprable to African Americans, you're severely mistaken.

quote: So, my question is this -- what do white men have reasons to celebrate their identity? What do heterosexuals have reasons to celebrate their identity?

Hey pal, I'm proud of my parents and who they are, I'm proud of my grandparents and who they are, and I'm damn proud of what they've had to go through. Was it because they're white - no. But that doesn't mean i can't have pride in my heritage. Just because it's the norm doesn't make it any less worthy of pride.

I'm sure there are plenty of black families that have been well off for a good long time, generations upon generations, and they have every right to celebrate pride in their heritage if they want too. But according to you, only those that have met the mark of suffering in your eyes deserve to be proud.

quote: This is where I do not understand white pride or straight pride. To me, it just seems that these were started out of spiteful mockery of acknowledgement of black culture, and affirmation of gay identity. That all it seems to me --- spiteful mockery of the legitimate groups, communities, and organizations for MINORITY groups.

So white pride in south Africa is ok then right? And black pride should be condemed...right?

No one's mocking anything. What I'm specifically saying is that segregating yourselves into groups which BY NAME signify that only a certain 'race' or even 'sexuality' of people should join only does THEIR race or sexuality harm, and destroys the bridges that THEIR ANCESTORS have built to connect the dots between aspects of society that were once separate.

If they want Black Student Unions, then we should not be surprised to find campuses where blacks hang out with blacks and whites hang out with whites.

	24-05-2002 11:31									#84
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: If they want Black Student Unions, then we should not be surprised to find campuses where blacks hang out with blacks and whites hang out with whites.

And no, i DON'T see this as a positive thing

	24-05-2002 11:34									#85
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

There are those who believe that a race war is inevitable. And it wouldn't be pleasant if you had to attack your friends. While I don't see this likely to happen, I can see a reoccurance of the Rodney King verdict situation we had in 1994 (or was it 1992?).

But the simple fact is a majority of blacks have a different culture than a majority of whites. I say majority because there is significant blending, especially recently. This is a good thing.

Blend away

	24-05-2002 11:37									#86
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Celebrations of various white cultures is legitimate -- festivals that celebrate German heritage, for instance.

An advocacy organization for whites, such as the NAAWP is not legitimate.

By all means, white Americans should definitely be proud of their cultural heritage.

But advocacy groups for whites??

And I never said that suppression of homosexuals was/is on the par that blacks have suffered.
Yet to this day, homosexuals are still suppressed -- but in the face of increasing social acceptance.

One more thing -- heterosexuals already celebrate their identity in a legitimate way -- legal, and social recognition of their marriages and relationships as being legitimate.

	24-05-2002 11:38									#87
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Dissident There are those who believe that a race war is inevitable. And it wouldn't be pleasant if you had to attack your friends. While I don't see this likely to happen, I can see a reoccurance of the Rodney King verdict situation we had in 1994 (or was it 1992?). But the simple fact is a majority of blacks have a different culture than a majority of whites. I say majority because there is significant blending, especially recently. This is a good thing. Blend away

I also notice that african americans seem 'forced' to fit into one of society's preconceived black steriotypes...

A) you're an athlete (most notably Basketball, but football as well)
B) you sell drugs and hang out in gangs
C) you go into the military

though occasionally you get a "prove yourself" black who goes through school with 4.0s, graduates top of his class, is involved in everything, gets into a big time university, flawless all the way through, etc. etc.

I mean yeah that's a good thing, all motivation is good motivation...but there always seems to be the lingering idea that they're doing it only to prove that steriotypes don't apply to them.

	24-05-2002 11:40									#88
	Tired of ads?

Orange, I have moderated/clarified my opinion on this topic with my last post -- hope you saw it.

	24-05-2002 11:43									#89
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by MrFun Celebrations of various white cultures is legitimate -- festivals that celebrate German heritage, for instance. An advocacy organization for whites, such as the NAAWP is not legitimate.

but an advocacy group for blacks is legitimate because...why? Blacks have equal rights as Whites...

and what if the NAAWP or similar org. is against Affirmative Action and sees it as racist against whites? I know I do. And I don't feel I'm a racist for thinking that way.

Quite honestly I think both organizations are pointless, but I'd rather have both be legitimate than one be legitimate and one be illegitimate.

quote: By all means, white Americans should definitely be proud of their cultural heritage.

Apparently not. It's ok to be proud that you're black, but not ok to be proud that you're white.

quote: But advocacy groups for whites??

Affirmative Action

quote: And I never said that suppression of homosexuals was/is on the par that blacks have suffered. Yet to this day, homosexuals are still suppressed -- but in the face of increasing social acceptance. One more thing -- heterosexuals already celebrate their identity in a legitimate way -- legal, and social recognition of their marriages and relationships as being legitimate.

no, we don't "celebrate" our identity. That's part of life. It's not a celebration of our sexuality. It's something people do. I agree that any two humans that want to get married should be able to, by law...and if a group's goals were to lobby/protest/etc. for that to happen I'd be all for it, but not if they called themselves "Union of Gay/Lesbian Americans" or something to that tone.

	24-05-2002 11:46									#90
	Full PM-box? Change here!

You missed the point with marriage -- homosexuals have yet to gain widespread, legal recognition of their unions, along with social acceptance of their relationships.

These are things that heterosexuals have always had.