24-05-2002 11:47									#91
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun You missed the point with marriage -- homosexuals have yet to gain widespread, legal recognition of their unions, along with social acceptance of their relationships. These are things that heterosexuals have always had.

No, i get it. Start a group that lobbies for that to happen. I'd support it, hell i'd join. But am I going to join a group that calls itself "Union of Gay/Lesbian Americans" - most likely not, because I won't feel 'part' of the group, and I won't feel that I meet the requirements...the name alone is enough to say 'welp, not for you, you're straight orange'

	24-05-2002 11:48									#92
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well I think we all agree that the NAAWP is a bunch of bullsh!t. Basically they are trying to put down the NAACP as an illigitimate organization. By using similar letters they are partially accomplishing this. Their only purpose is to spread more hatred.

But what we're trying to theorize is if some white people tried to create a group exactly like the NAACP (only with white people) would it work? would it be accepted?

	24-05-2002 11:55									#93
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of course not. Even if its intentions were just, and if it was founded by non-racists.

Reverse racism is still racism

	24-05-2002 11:59									#94
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Orange -- in respect to your thread's original topic, I created a separate thread to end this thread jacking, which I am partially responsible for.

Sorry about that -- but check out my thread.

	24-05-2002 12:00									#95
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i will, but i didn't see it as a threadjack....not at all....

in fact i quite expected the conversation to flow in this direction

	24-05-2002 12:05									#96
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From voluntary segregation to advocacy groups for whites??

Well, perhaps, but since I already created the thread . . . . . .

	24-05-2002 14:13									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I'm sorry, but white men can't jump

I can. Well I could when I was younger. I can't reach the damn rim of the basket anymore. Very annoying.

I look at Kobe Bryant and think. If I was 6'7" like that I too could have thrown the ball down into the basket. At 5'11" I couldn't quite dunk. Almost. Eight inches more in height and about 9 or 10 in reach it would have been a cinch. Heck three more inches would have been enough but only barely.

	24-05-2002 15:56									#98
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Someday, you will reach the enlightened path, Cal -- along with GP. Black pride is legitimate, because for too long, they were blamblasted by white society that their culture and identity is meaningless, with no significant heritage. Black pride is, and to a good extent, has undone this myth. Just as gay pride is legitimate, while straight pride is not.

In my opinion anyone who reflexively needs an ethnic or gender or sexual orientation based pride organization is showing signs of weakness. There may well be a good reason for that, but the sooner they don't need stuff like that the better off both they and the rest of society will be. That said everyone should be allowed to have their crutch if they are willing to stand up to whatever criticism comes their way for it. Let the race baiters of all races be treated with the contempt they deserve, and ditto for the gender warriors, gay bashers and heterophobes. People have a constitutional right to associate in whatever manner they wish.

	24-05-2002 16:11									#99
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quote: Originally posted by DetroitDave Look, Black groups don't exist solely on the basis of their skin color. There is a strong, legitimate mission to reclaim everything that was lost from the slavery era. This includes religion, history, and arts like music and literature. All of these were obliterated from the legacy of slavery. These groups exist to re-form an identity that was stripped from them completely.

History and literature is pushing it a bit, as I doubt that one in a thousand slaves were literate before being enslaved. But I concede the general point about the cultural shock of slavery. The hardest hit of all was probably the loss of everyone's native language, as so much of culture is stored there. West African religion went through a rare re-focusing via Voodoo in Haiti btw. Usually religions like languages disperse over time and space. Most of the slaves came from West Africa from tribes which were culturally descended from common ancestors. Voodoo redistilled these various religions into one simpler one by accentuating the common elements.

A similar thing happened musically. African Americans are the most influential group of people on the planet bar none when it comes to music, and a lot of this has to do with the fact that many simple musical traditions were retained in a larger and much more complex musical culture built here in the USA. Add to that background a much wider variety of instrumentation and the possibilities implicit in notation and what you have is an African musical renaissance in the post-slavery USA whose effects are still being felt around the world.

	24-05-2002 18:44									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer What DetroitDave, Carver, and Tingkai said. Orange, I used to think just like you when I was 18 or 19. You're young, and still learning.

Dont patronise Orange just because hes younger than you. No matter what your age we are all still learning.

	24-05-2002 18:46									#101
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Woohoo, new page!

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Dont patronise Orange just because hes younger than you. No matter what your age we are all still learning.

I agree, I hate people who are condescending because of their age. Orange has always proved himself to be a level-headed and rational thinker, and being the age he is, may have an insight on a situation someone older may not have. So listen, we all have something new to learn.

	24-05-2002 18:47									#102
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quote: Originally posted by SnowFire Re Black culture being mangled by slavery: I have no doubt that this is true. However... this is an open ended question, but what is culture? And why should I or any other person adopt a certain culture just because our great great grandparents had it, but in the intervening time didn't? I'd rather choose my own culture based off of my own decisions. Now I don't deny people's rights to use whatever "culture" they want, but I sure hope that the pitch they hear has nothing to do with being obligated to do so on the basis of their skin color.

Exactly.
Your culture is what you make of it. Theres no reason why someone should feel obligated to indentify with any culture because of their skin color.

Tingkai, Guynemer, Chegitz and MrFun are all racists.

	24-05-2002 19:50									#103
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Isnt it reasonable to expect like-minded people with similar backgrounds and experience to associate with each other to a greater degree than those with which they have less in common?

$hit have to add:

Skin colour is a factor in this but not the only one.

	24-05-2002 20:36									#104
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I wasn't trying to patronize you, Orange, I apologize. My only point (poorly made) was that I was thinking the EXACT same things as you are when I was a first-year student. I could have written that exact same post, word for word. But as you meet more people, learn more about their history, their upbringing, how they feel they've been treated by society, you'll begin to understand why people do the things you rail against.

Why is advocating "white pride" or "straight pride" viewed as bigotry? Because it is implied in our society. Every month is White History Month. Every day is Straight Pride Day. The marginalization people go through is something we can't really understand.

	24-05-2002 20:37									#105
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And Cali, for the record, you are full of ****.

	24-05-2002 20:45									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Why is advocating "white pride" or "straight pride" viewed as bigotry? Because it is implied in our society. Every month is White History Month. Every day is Straight Pride Day. The marginalization people go through is something we can't really understand.

Guy, I am glad we agree on this.

I also noticed that Cal has decided to avoid my thread on this secondary topic. I guess he cannot answer the questions in that thread.

	24-05-2002 20:51									#107
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What makes you think the only people who are entitled to celebrate their heritage are those who have "victim" status? It just goes to show you are predjudiced against whites and white culture.

	24-05-2002 20:52									#108
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I also noticed that Cal has decided to avoid my thread on this secondary topic. I guess he cannot answer the questions in that thread.

Actually, nobody else was posting there, so I didnt either.

	24-05-2002 20:59									#109
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Cal, as I have said a couple of times already -- white people can celebrate their cultural or ethnic heritage.

What I see as meaningless, are advocacy groups for white, straight men.


BTW -- the lack of posts with arguments in my thread proves that I am correct, in that advocacy groups for white, straight men are meaningless.
No one has provided examples of how white, Northern European men have been persecuted because of their race.
No one has provided examples of how white, straight men have been repressed because of their sexual orientation.

	24-05-2002 21:00									#110
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Cali, not only are you full of ****, you're apparently not a rocket scientist, either. Perhaps I need to spell it out for you; if I'm going too fast, let me know.

We are ALWAYS celebrating white heritage and white culture. Always. Throw on a random television at a random time of day. Percentage wise, how often will you see a white person before you see a non-white person? I'll guarantee that it's well over the proportion of our population that is white. History? White people, white people, white people. Leaders? 100% of U.S. Presidents have been white men. Congress today is still disproportionately white.

Having "white pride" is just ****ing redundant. It's a stupid way for stupid people to show how threatened they are by minorities.

	24-05-2002 21:12									#111
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Cali posts a link to a white supremicist group, then claims it's only a "white pride" group. Then he points fingers at others and claims they are racist. Standing up for an organization started by the former head of the Klan doesn't really make you look good in anyone's eyes.

Black pride and gay pride are reactions to the denegration of their being. Gay people especially need gay pride, since nearly every culture on Earth says that homosexuality is evil, degenerate, perverse, etc. You grow up in an environment that says that about you and you will internalize those beliefs. Why do you think so many gay teens kill themselves.

So too, Black pride is a reaction to years of being considered inferior, lazy, criminal, dirty, lustful, useless. Our media still promotes the idea (though much more subtly now) that Blacks aren't full members of this society. Black pride helps to combat the soul draining effects of living in a racist society.

I have never heard anyone proclaim white pride who wasn't a white supremicist. Despite claims of the denegration of the straight white male, we still rule the world. We are still the measure of success. Anyone who thinks that it's hard being a white male hetero is just clueless and out of touch.

You don't think white male acheivements aren't being celebrated all the time? This is the world we built. We go on and on about the things we've done constantly. We just don't celebrate it because we're white.

Orange, if you think about it, I'm sure you'll figure out why there aren't Mali clubs or Yoruba clubs among Black people. Because slavery homogenized Black people. Most Black people have no clue as to what part of Africa their ancestors originated, let alone specific ethnic groups. It's not as if the masters kept records as to where they bought their slaves and who they bought them from. Anyway, Black people are a hybrid African-European-American Indian mix.

	24-05-2002 21:18									#112
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Chegitz, again you have posted excellent comments.

	24-05-2002 21:25									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer We are ALWAYS celebrating white heritage and white culture. Always. Throw on a random television at a random time of day. Percentage wise, how often will you see a white person before you see a non-white person? I'll guarantee that it's well over the proportion of our population that is white. History? White people, white people, white people. Leaders? 100% of U.S. Presidents have been white men. Congress today is still disproportionately white.

How is this a "celebration" of white heretage and white culture? White culture is what built this country, so that is the dominant culture. There is a difference between practicing a culture and celebrating it.

quote: Having "white pride" is just ****ing redundant. It's a stupid way for stupid people to show how threatened they are by minorities.

I think any "pride" in something you were born with is stupid, but its racist to say its ok for one racial group and not another.

	24-05-2002 21:29									#114
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You are the worst of the lot Chegitz. You obviously look down on white people when you hyphenate the words "white culture" and in the same sentence capitalise Black culture. You also use terms like "pasty white" to describe white people. For you to deny your racism is laughable.

	24-05-2002 21:35									#115
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Caligastia -- white culture did not exclusively built this country.

1) Black slaves were the foundation of the Southern economy until 1865.

2) Chinese immigrants (as well as Irish immigrants) helped build the transcontinental railroad.

3) Blacks have provided much of our music culture in our country.

There are many other examples of non-white immigrants and non-white citizens who have built our country.

	24-05-2002 21:36									#116
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Yes, I'm soo bad. I'm out there all the time opressing white people, making sure they can't get jobs, keeping them fron getting a place to live, pointing them out to the police as possible criminals.

.01 out of ten.

	24-05-2002 21:45									#117
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Caligastia -- white culture did not exclusively built this country. 1) Black slaves were the foundation of the Southern economy until 1865.

Thats not black culture at work, its black labour.

quote: 2) Chinese immigrants (as well as Irish immigrants) helped build the transcontinental railroad.

Same here.

quote: 3) Blacks have provided much of our music culture in our country.

They have, but it didnt contribute to the building of this country.

	24-05-2002 21:51									#118
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BTW, Cali, the reason why white is lowercase and Black is uppercase is because ethnic groups are capitalized. Whites aren't an ethnic group. German gets capitalized, not white. English gets capitalized, not white. Black gets capitalized. Simple grammar. (AP Style says that races should be lowercase, and they recommend lowercasing black, but I use a stricter grammar).

	24-05-2002 21:55									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Tingkai, Guynemer, Chegitz and MrFun are all racists.

I don't think there is a better proof that Cali has no idea about the meaning of racism.

As the football fans would say: OWN GOAL.

	24-05-2002 22:02									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia White culture is what built this country, so that is the dominant culture.

Now would that be the White culture of Italian-Americans, or the White culture of the Irish-Americans (the blacks of Europe as they said in The Committments). Or maybe it is the White culture of Eastern Europe, or the White culture of the jews. Or maybe it was the White political concept of democracy that was derived from the Iroquois.