26-05-2002 02:52									#61
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quote: Saint Marcus, I am surprised that you cannot see the basic problem. If an American, acting in his official capacity, is charged with war crimes by an enemy of the United States, and that person is arrested and taken to the Hague, the arrest is an act of war against the U.S. (Ditto any country trying to arrest an official of an enemy country. I can think of the Greeks trying to arrest Turk officials, for example.)

That's a joke right? Arresting a foreign national for crimes he commited and putting him on trial isn't an act of war.

It's only an act of war if that person happends to be a governement official (president, minister, MP, diplomat, etc).

quote: If the Dutch refuse to turn the American over to the United Stares, they too have committed an act of war.

The Dutch have no control over this matter, same with embassies.

quote: The Dutch may have no idea what kind of quicksand they have just stepped into.

The dutch don't control the court.

And what quicksand? Do you honestly expect the US to go to war with Holland, and thus the rest of Europe, over this? Of course not. If an American is arrested, all the US can do is whine and whine some more.

quote: Can you imagine the Secretary of State on an official mission to Greece, for example, being arrested and taken to the Hague?

sitting governement officials are excluded of course. but a man like Kissinger isn't. Nor are American soldiers. And Bush is protected, for as long as he remains in office.

	26-05-2002 03:05									#62
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Originally I thought the US should have signed this agreement. But thanks to all the comments by the euroknowitalls here, I now understand why we didn't.

RAH

	26-05-2002 03:10									#63
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SEE!! Marcus, you need to be a bit more sneaky. Seriously!

	26-05-2002 03:20									#64
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quote: The congress can't tell the President to take military action, silly.

Bush is threathening to sign that clause.

	26-05-2002 03:32									#65
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For clarification, I was talking about the world court issue, not any hairbrained thoughts that come from Helms.

RAH

	26-05-2002 03:34									#66
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I suspect, Saint Marcus, we could head off threats to arrest American officials and soldiers by stating that such an arrest will be deemed an Act of War on the United States - just in case it was not clear to begin with.

I would assume any ashole nation that tried to arrest Kissinger would be faced with a total breakdown of relations with the U.S., if not worse. I do fully expect U.S. forces would act to resue Kissinger if diplomacy were not to work.

	26-05-2002 03:36									#67
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Agreed. We should not enter the World Court with the Helms Amendment. Better not to join at all.

	26-05-2002 03:44									#68
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Agreed. And I'd like to thank all those here for clarifying why.

	26-05-2002 03:48									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln The EU would love to get its hands on Ariel Sharone and lock him up for trial for example and some would like to drag Ronald Reagan to the Hague. It is probably best to just play judge and jury for your own people. Once it starts there will be no end to the pompous trials of whoever differs ideologically from Europe. Why don't you try Arrafat for a starter?

A charge was filed against Arafat in Belgian courts, using the same genocide-law as is the case with the charge against Sharon, and a charge against Saddam has also been laid down.

And FYI, no European govt is involved with any of the accusers, who are usually victims of the accused his real or perceived wrongdoing.

	26-05-2002 06:10									#70
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you are so far behind Saint Marcus...

US has given authorisation to its secret services to KILL anybody they deem dangerous in ANY sovereign country of the world...

(if you want the source you're going to have to wait a few days untill I can get my hands on the book and the US FILED decision on that matter)

	26-05-2002 07:05									#71
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 you are so far behind Saint Marcus... US has given authorisation to its secret services to KILL anybody they deem dangerous in ANY sovereign country of the world... (if you want the source you're going to have to wait a few days untill I can get my hands on the book and the US FILED decision on that matter)

This book wasn't printed in Egypt was it?

	26-05-2002 07:10									#72
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don't worry it is published by a well known journalist who has been covering international relations for like 30 years now.

i might have "misspelled" one or two words though

	26-05-2002 07:15									#73
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BTW Did you know that Tenet, the chief of your CIA is greek?
yeah
and so is Tomy Lee, you know the guy with pamela anderson?

no relation though

	26-05-2002 07:15									#74
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Filing a charge is not the same thing as going ahead with the prosecution. I really do not know what charges the WC will pursue against whom. And I would not like to give them that discretion. I think that after WW2 the world was justified in trying war criminals because it was so obvious but this tribunal seems to have too much discretion. By the way, does anyone know of a good website that follows the Milosovich trial with transcripts etc.?

	26-05-2002 07:17									#75
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Gosh I love how I am collectively ignored!

	26-05-2002 07:18									#76
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http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/iwhats.htm

good luck going through it Lincoln

	26-05-2002 07:23									#77
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Thanks paiktis.

	26-05-2002 07:27									#78
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no problem

	26-05-2002 16:07									#79
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quote: I suspect, Saint Marcus, we could head off threats to arrest American officials and soldiers by stating that such an arrest will be deemed an Act of War on the United States - just in case it was not clear to begin with.

Didn't Japan arrest an American charged with rape? Also, I don't recall any international treaties that label arresting a soldier for crimes he commited an act of war.

quote: I would assume any ashole nation that tried to arrest Kissinger would be faced with a total breakdown of relations with the U.S., if not worse. I do fully expect U.S. forces would act to resue Kissinger if diplomacy were not to work.

France would. And is the US stupid enough to attack France, a NATO ally, or Holland, another NATO ally? If they dare to attack any ally, they will be kicked out of NATO and tonnes of other organisations. It will likely lead to a EU boycot of the US. And shoudl the US do something "worse" (your words), it will lead to WW3.

If an American soldier, or Kissinger for that matter, gets arrested in France and taken to the court in Holland there is absolutely NOTHING the USA can do, except whine and whine some more. They will be powerless to stop the trial, and this is what scares them most.

PS how do you propose the Americans rescue someone from a French prison? In other words, how will they get into the country, to the prison, into the prison, out of the prison again with the prisoner, coping with casualties/wounds suffered by the troops, getting out of the country (and the rest of Europe) again, deal with the fallout of killing allied police officers / soldiers, etc.

Of course they can't. The Americans didn't rescue their captured soldiers from Serbia either, or Iraq.

	26-05-2002 16:58									#80
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Paiktis, did you know pamela had finnish blood? I can't remember what way she has it, but she has it and she knows it.

	26-05-2002 17:16									#81
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Saint Marcus, Your post so well illustrates the problem with the treaty that I am amazed that you would still support it. Politically motivated people will be filing charges against the US all over the world. This could lead to a massive disruption in diplomatic relations that could have vast and unforseen collateral damage.

As to the Okinawa rapist, I believe the US turned them over for trial at the request of the local authorities. However, rape is not a political crime - the soldiers were not acting in their official capacity.

An arrest of Reagan or Kissinger by leftist activists would set off a political storm that you could never in your worse nightmare imagine. Let us hope that no ******* nation like Holland or France tries it.

	26-05-2002 17:48									#82
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But Milosevic and Mladic were acting in an 'official capacity'. Is that different because they are not American, and thus, propaganda is not on their side?

	26-05-2002 18:00									#83
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exactly.

Americans are hypocrites. It's ok for a serb to be charged and arrested, but not for an American who might do the same.

quote: Politically motivated people will be filing charges against the US all over the world.

99.9% of all those charges will be rejected.

quote: Let us hope that no ******* nation like Holland or France tries it.

I sincerely hope they do. It's about time someone stands up to the US. And sure the US will whine and ***** and threathen. I don't care really. There's nothing they can do.

quote: rape is not a political crime

neither is genocide.

	26-05-2002 18:23									#84
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Saint Marcus, I am sure Holland and France will do quite well without access to trade with the United States. Of course, being allies will be history. This obviously is the exact result the politically motivated leftist activists want.

	26-05-2002 18:28									#85
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Is that a threat or a promise?

	26-05-2002 18:33									#86
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if the US boycots France, it's likely the entire EU will retaliate. There goes the US economy.

	26-05-2002 18:40									#87
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Ah hah! One upmanship is it? Well, I am sure the UK and the Commonwealth will join the U.S., not the EU, on that side of a trade war.

Japan will be on the U.S. side as well.

	26-05-2002 18:43									#88
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I would sincerely hope over an issue like this that the UK would side with the EU, after all, it would be the US in the wrong...

	26-05-2002 19:04									#89
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the UK is already joining the EU in the recent trade war

	26-05-2002 19:05									#90
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same goes for japan


and why would the UK side with the US if the US is starting it? After all, the UK is pro ICC.