28-05-2002 02:39									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker Mars will never have an atmosphere like ours PH. Not unless we crashed its moons into it or something... But this will allow 'tin cans, domes, and bunkers' type towns to built, since this means we can have wells, of a sort.

My plan for terraforming Mars involves knocking loads of dense iron asteroids into it. Bump up the G-force at the surface, get a a bit of atmosphere going and then start the process of seeding life.

Basically I can't see how terraformers can expect to maintain an atmosphere on Mars without having a impermeable canopy or stronger gravity.

	28-05-2002 02:47									#92
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I think it would be better to create a greenhouse effect, that would heat up the surface and cause gas trapped in the ice to break out with the water and create some kind of atmosphere . Then try to fill the planet with earthly high altitude weeds. for starters. we could also use fusion power to break oxygen out of many minerals in the surface, thus making it breathable. The Nitrogene is an issue I haven't confronted yet. I recommend tryinf to replicate earth's biosphere after that.

	28-05-2002 02:48									#93
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I suppose if we had the technology to play pool with asteroids we'd be able to keep em from crashing into the earth when we missed mars.

	28-05-2002 02:54									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti I think it would be better to create a greenhouse effect, that would heat up the surface and cause gas trapped in the ice to break out with the water and create some kind of atmosphere . Then try to fill the planet with earthly high altitude weeds. for starters. we could also use fusion power to break oxygen out of many minerals in the surface, thus making it breathable. The Nitrogene is an issue I haven't confronted yet. I recommend tryinf to replicate earth's biosphere after that.

How do plan to prevent the atmosphere seeping away again?

	28-05-2002 02:58									#95
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Atmosphere seepage happens very slowly. Tens of thousands of years for O2 (or similar weight atom) to drop significantly at room temperature.

	28-05-2002 03:07									#96
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So you're not planning on staying too long then? (as a species, not personnally). ~10 thousand years is not long in the scheme of things.

	28-05-2002 03:08									#97
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I figure that the effort's worth it every 10 000 years or so. Consider it upkeep costs.

	28-05-2002 03:11									#98
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Buying is cheaper than renting.

	28-05-2002 03:12									#99
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Not if you've got an idiot for a landlord...

	28-05-2002 03:12									#100
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Saw this in the paper, apparently this will allow human colonies in the next 20 years or so.

	28-05-2002 03:13									#101
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Not if you've got an idiot for a landlord...

	28-05-2002 03:14									#102
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i.e. his rents are so low that it costs more to buy than to rent in perpetuity...

	28-05-2002 03:16									#103
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I knew what you meant, just disagree.

	28-05-2002 03:16									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin My plan for terraforming Mars involves knocking loads of dense iron asteroids into it. Bump up the G-force at the surface, get a a bit of atmosphere going and then start the process of seeding life. Basically I can't see how terraformers can expect to maintain an atmosphere on Mars without having a impermeable canopy or stronger gravity.

Are there enough such asteroids in the solar system to do this? What mass is needed?

	28-05-2002 03:17									#105
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Umm...GP, I'd guess mass needed is on planetary scale. Not really realistic...

	28-05-2002 03:18									#106
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There is plenty. There are enough asteroids to make an Earth sized planet, except Jupiter messed it up so that they never coalesced.

	28-05-2002 03:18									#107
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Whereas mass of atmosphere is not really that great. 100 1-mile radius iceballs would have significant impact (can't be arsed to do exact calculation right now).

	28-05-2002 03:34									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin There is plenty. There are enough asteroids to make an Earth sized planet, except Jupiter messed it up so that they never coalesced.

My understanding of the asteroid masses is that it is much les than a planet. Maybe you are counting in all the comets?

	28-05-2002 04:05									#109
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Why bother terraforming anyway? Without a magnetic field, any created atmosphere would soon be lost anyway. Besides, after living under large domes for decades or even generations, why would anyone care for an atmosphere? It's infinitely easier to maintain an atmosphere within the confines of a self-enclosed dome than on a planetary scale. In any case, terraforming outside the colony would be on the forever plan after the laborious tasks of maintaining the colony and making it financially independent.

As for martian microbes, there is a minimal risk as we have no idea what there may be, but it's hardly worth losing sleep over it. Any microbes on Mars are unlikely to have the best part of 5 billion years of evolution behind it, so are hardly likely to be able to compete with any form of life on earth. What chance would a microbe from 2 billion years ago on earth have against any form on life on earth now? I cannot imagine, in the long-term at least, any quarantine from Mars being more than what your average horse has when being shipped overseas!

	28-05-2002 06:07									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Lung Why bother terraforming anyway? Without a magnetic field, any created atmosphere would soon be lost anyway. Besides, after living under large domes for decades or even generations, why would anyone care for an atmosphere? It's infinitely easier to maintain an atmosphere within the confines of a self-enclosed dome than on a planetary scale. In any case, terraforming outside the colony would be on the forever plan after the laborious tasks of maintaining the colony and making it financially independent. As for martian microbes, there is a minimal risk as we have no idea what there may be, but it's hardly worth losing sleep over it. Any microbes on Mars are unlikely to have the best part of 5 billion years of evolution behind it, so are hardly likely to be able to compete with any form of life on earth. What chance would a microbe from 2 billion years ago on earth have against any form on life on earth now? I cannot imagine, in the long-term at least, any quarantine from Mars being more than what your average horse has when being shipped overseas!

The magnetic field doesn't have much to do with atmospheric evaporation - rather it deflects or redirects hi-energy solar charged particles from reaching the surface. Mars does have such a field of sorts but it is much weaker than the Earths.

The problem with microbes, billions of years old or not, is their adaptability to new environments. If such agents were released on earth the more appropriate question would be what chance it would have against competing microbial life. If it did adapt and prosper then there could be grave consequences for almost all/any present lifeforms.
As for the the problems caused by shipping horses overseas, well that rather depends upon the horse in question doesn't it ...

	28-05-2002 06:15									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin My plan for terraforming Mars involves knocking loads of dense iron asteroids into it. Bump up the G-force at the surface, get a a bit of atmosphere going and then start the process of seeding life. Basically I can't see how terraformers can expect to maintain an atmosphere on Mars without having a impermeable canopy or stronger gravity.

I think the total asteroid mass in the solar system was last estimated at about a fifth to a fourth of the Earths mass. ie: Probably not enough for this purpose.
In any case the immense amount of energy released during an asteroid bombardment would almost certainly eject a sizable quantity of the matter you wish to insert (gigaton equivalent impacts or greater).

	28-05-2002 07:48									#112
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I'm with Lung on this, the effort to make Mars earthlike is ridiculous.

I see an atmosphere not much more dense than now, but much warmer. Dense enough for liquid water. (and thus, a marine ecosystem)

Humans will never be able to walk around and breath on mars, but I believe we could 'terraform' enough to grow plant life outside domes. Actually Frank Herbert's Dune is a good model for how Martian colonists will live: sealed 'sietch' communities, everybody must wear a 'stillsuit' outside (in this case an ultralight weight environment suit).

At Home in a Dome

	28-05-2002 11:24									#113
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Everyone:

Excellent news. Perhaps the first step in creating a thicker atmosphere might be to somehow get more carbon dioxide circulating, then go from there.

Gatekeeper

	28-05-2002 13:51									#114
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Let them develop the far side. Keep the side facing Earth the way it has always been.

The far side of the moon is perfect for all kinds of observatories.

As for the near side...sice most facilities are liable to be underground anyway, I reallly don't see a problem. I think the real guiding factor will be, which side is less likely to take an asteroid hit?

	28-05-2002 13:53									#115
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I think we should divy up the oceans proportional to coastline length...

I think we should divy up the coastlines proportional to naval strength...

	28-05-2002 14:03									#116
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Mars held onto it's atmosphere for millions of years, long enough for water features to appear.

It only lost it's atmosphere because of catastrophic asteroid impacts, which I'm sure we can defend against.

Plus, it's vulcanism died out earlier than the Earths, so the atmosphere could not be recharged.

A gigantic canopy covering the whole planet could be a good solution, since the gas would not be pressurised and the canopy could be relatively flimsy.

	28-05-2002 14:25									#117
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I think we should divy up the coastlines proportional to naval strength...

That's the current system. How American; why bother to negotiate for what you can just steal?

	28-05-2002 15:52									#119
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Sandman. a Gigantic canopee is nof feasable for human logistical and technological skills for at least another 10000 years, and even that if all goes smoothly.

	28-05-2002 16:00									#120
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I don't understand the problem; like I said, atmospheric leakage doesn't become a problem until you're on multimillennial timescale. Pay the rent every 10000 years and crash a few more comets into Mars.