28-05-2002 00:56									#61
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quote: Originally posted by David James But... since when was honesty an ideal of either Democrats or Republicans?

This type of thinking is a copout. It excuses unethical acts by politicians with an "everybody does it" type of attitude.

	28-05-2002 01:13									#62
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun 4) Some people seem to believe that mono-culture and the elimination of diversity will be the only way to eradicate racism. I find this to be a tragic delusion. I can appreciate diversity of race and culture, while also advocating taking down the walls between the different groups.

I think that's deluded as well (that is, I agree with your first two sentences). But unfortunately, by "tearing down the walls" you also run the risk of eliminating diversity and creating a mono-cultural, mono-racial world. It will seem to be diverse while the process is underway, but once complete it sure won't be. You can't in the long run (decades, centuries, whatever) have both a diverse society and a fully integrated one at the same time.


As an interesting comparison with the natural world, take this example from the Sierra Club of Canada with respect to BC Salmon, specifically the last two items (The key to population health is genetic diversity and Fish farms - No friend of wild salmon).
http://bc.sierraclub.ca/Campaigns/M...WildSalmon.html

	28-05-2002 01:19									#63
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quote: Originally posted by GP This type of thinking is a copout. It excuses unethical acts by politicians with an "everybody does it" type of attitude.

It was a joke GP! The joke was how could one expect Democrats and Republicans to agree to enshrine a principle they don't themselves abide by? But then again, they aren't honest, so maybe it wouldn't be that difficult.

	28-05-2002 01:26									#64
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I know its a joke. It's just reached a sad state, now.

	28-05-2002 01:26									#65
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quote: Originally posted by David James I think that's deluded as well (that is, I agree with your first two sentences). But unfortunately, by "tearing down the walls" you also run the risk of eliminating diversity and creating a mono-cultural, mono-racial world. It will seem to be diverse while the process is underway, but once complete it sure won't be. You can't in the long run (decades, centuries, whatever) have both a diverse society and a fully integrated one at the same time. As an interesting comparison with the natural world, take this example from the Sierra Club of Canada with respect to BC Salmon, specifically the last two items (The key to population health is genetic diversity and Fish farms - No friend of wild salmon). http://bc.sierraclub.ca/Campaigns/M...WildSalmon.html

I read the section that you asked me to check out.
But I do not believe in the "all or nothing" argument. I believe that it is possible to balance productive diversity in the human population with integration.

	28-05-2002 02:25									#66
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If we ever did integrate completely into one race/ethnicity I don't think it would endanger the survival of our species. There are enough genetic differences within any given race to sustain genetic diversity. We are not salmon having to deal with a vast change in environment, where one race might have a new decided advantage over the others. We form the environment to fit our needs.

From a cultural standpoint I doubt people will ever relinquish their diversity. There will always be lifestyle differences no matter how well integrated we are racially. We shouldn't avoid tearing down walls just because someone from X culture might decide to live their life in Y culture. People should have that choice. Diversity will be maintained by the individual desire to stand out, be different, and have their own identity.

Besides, culture should be like anything else. It shouldn't be forced to stagnate, but be allowed to evolve. There are many aspects of present day cultures that we would be better off without. Forcing cultural diversity just further divides us.

	28-05-2002 03:10									#67
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Does anyone doubt my accusation that Caligastia is racist now? Hell, I'm gonna go one better. Cali's a white supremicist. There's no point in arguing with scum like this. He's not gonna change his mind. He thinks that other races are inferior, he is opposed to doing anything that would ameliorate the effects of white racism, he wants to pander to white racism by lowering or banning cetain races from immigrating. He may as well just come out and admit that he wants the US to be a whites-only country.

Go the **** back to New Zealand, you useless ****!

	28-05-2002 03:33									#68
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I don't know if he's a racist. Maybe he's just getting wierded out by the whole race thing. Maybe it's a NY thing...

	28-05-2002 07:36									#69
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quote: Im talking about immigration policies, not individual relationships.

There is nothing "forceful" in allowing people to live as they please, so shove your racist, authoritarian hyperbole back up your ass.

quote: Because even with current immigration policies, it would take a very long time for the races in the US to be sufficiently mixed as to be indistinguishable, and in the meantime society pays a high price because of violence and discrimination. We both seem to have the same ideal - one race. We just disagree on how to get there.

Then why aren't you advocating unlimited immigration? Surely that's the best way to achieve ethnic homogeneity. Nevermind, I wouldn't want to get anything as unimportant as logic or justice in the way of your bigotted ideology.

quote: Go the **** back to New Zealand, you useless ****!

Damn straight che. Couldn't have said it better myself.

	28-05-2002 08:47									#70
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I was going to give this thread 2/10 but I'm deducting a point for running it so close to your "I'll never troll again" thread

So 1/10.

	28-05-2002 08:54									#71
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Why do people always give such low troll scores. It's almost llike they want to give lower scores to more effective and hateful trolls. This is definitly more than a 1 or 2. I gave somebody a 5/10 recently...even though I hated their comment because it was original and insiciviely cutting.

I really hated Lincoln's "eating troll" but it was clearly a high scorer...

	28-05-2002 09:00									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Zhu Yuanzhang Hmmm a ways up the thread in one of his less coherent bits Cal says the he favors achieving a "one race" country. How exactly are we got go about this, I wouldn't really like to know before your puff finishes dissipating

My hunch is the "one race" he favors is whites, and how...Vell, vee have vays ov makingk zuch thingks happen...

	28-05-2002 09:02									#73
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I think he's lookin for some action with the sistahs!!

	28-05-2002 09:03									#74
	Inflate your Upload Space

What, you think he's really down with the brown?

	28-05-2002 09:35									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov What, you think he's really down with the brown?

He seems more down in the brown stuff, aka BS.

By the way Cali, you are really pis$ing off a lot of decent people. Why don't you get out and do a little field research and come back in a few years when you have learned more than how to argue two contradictory and useless points simultaneously. Give me a few years and I'll be ready for another one of your race-baiting trolls.

	28-05-2002 09:35									#76
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yeah. Sometimes if you want something to get done, you have to do it yourself...

	28-05-2002 10:06									#77
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quote: Originally posted by David James I think that's deluded as well (that is, I agree with your first two sentences). But unfortunately, by "tearing down the walls" you also run the risk of eliminating diversity and creating a mono-cultural, mono-racial world. It will seem to be diverse while the process is underway, but once complete it sure won't be. You can't in the long run (decades, centuries, whatever) have both a diverse society and a fully integrated one at the same time.

I don't think this one biological race theory will ever happen. Inter-racial marriages will swing back and forth.

My grandmother was white, my grandfather was Chinese, my mother looks predominately white.

My father is chinese, my sisters and I look predominately Chinese (make sense when you think that three of four grandparents are Chinese)

My sister's husband is white, their two boys look white (husband's grandparents are white (four), my sister's grandparents are three Chinese, one white so the kids g-grandparents are five white, three Chinese)

If one of the boys marries a chinese girl then their kids will have five white great-great-grandparents and 11 Chinese great-great-grandparents so that child will likely look Chinese. If the wife is white then three Chinese g-g-grandparents and 13 white g-g-grandparents, the child will likely look white.

Edit: changed references to grandparents, great-grandparents, great-great grandparents.

	28-05-2002 10:09									#78
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math is off, Tingkai...

	28-05-2002 10:17									#79
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Thanks. I think I fixed the problems. I got mixed up on references to grandparents.

Last edited by Tingkai on 28-05-2002 at 10:22

	28-05-2002 10:26									#80
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looks good now

	28-05-2002 11:12									#81
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Too many misperceptions in this thread from a couple people that includes Cal. But let me add my own points: 1) There is and always was a black sub-culture. Any group of people that has a different historical experience from another group of people within a country, will develop their own ways of doing things, which forms a basis of a culture. Blacks developed their own culture from their experience with slavery and then after emancipation, blacks continued to develop their culture with this great change. To say that American blacks do not have their own culture shows ignorance.

Sub-culture does NOT equal a seprate culture. I am not ignorant on this. The small differences between blacks in black neighborhoods and whites in white neighborhoods have at least much to do with the differing amounts of money as they do historical backgrounds.

quote: 4) Some people seem to believe that mono-culture and the elimination of diversity will be the only way to eradicate racism. I find this to be a tragic delusion. I can appreciate diversity of race and culture, while also advocating taking down the walls between the different groups.

There are differences between a mono-culture and a diverse OVERLAPPING culture versus two seperate cultures.Same for genetic diversity. That is why I used Brazil as an example. It has NOT eliminated diversity. It has such a broad range that you can't make a distinction anymore.

Low diversity in any species is very bad. It leads to rapid spread of disease and a lack of adapability to changing conditions. Broad diversity is not the same as having mulltiple races though.

quote: 5) Supporting affirmative action does not mean that one also supports race wars, or erecting walls between groups. AA opponents often conjure up this strawman argument to distort the claims of those who support affirmative action.

Affirmative action is based on discrimination. Its an attempt to correct a wrong with another wrong. I feel it should only be used on the egregious cases where a group has done major harm by discriminating AND the harm can mitigated by affirmative action and there is no other way to get the ogranization integrated enough to stop further intentional segragation.

In other words the court has rightly mandated AA a number times. That doesn't mean that every organization should have racial quotas.

I first ran accross that racial crap when I was filling out forms for college.

RACE _________________

My favorite entery

RACEHomo Neanderthalensis

Lets see the bastards prove otherwise.

	28-05-2002 11:17									#82
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Ethelred, thanks for presenting intelligent counter-arguments without trolling, or using slanderous words just because you disagree with me.

Some others who disagree with me, could learn from you on more legitimate ways to argue. If can think of more elaborations, I will return.

Thanks for your points to consider.

	28-05-2002 11:34									#83
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Fun, Nobody trolls you. You are just oversensative.

	28-05-2002 11:39									#84
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I have been called extreme PC, racist, neo-racist, and a few other slanderous names that do not fit me at all.

Really though -- many of us, including me sometimes, just get way too emotional and use slander against one another.

The strongest word I usually use, is ignorant and that only means that "you do not know any better." It's better than just calling someone stupid or dumb.

	28-05-2002 12:05									#85
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Fun, you are "fun" to mess with...

cheer up! Go to bed.

	28-05-2002 12:06									#86
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I sooooooo need to get some sleep.

	28-05-2002 17:18									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Cali desperately tries to avoid going up in a puff of logic, but fails.

Is it so hard for you to understand that race can be a factor in some situations but not others? For example if a movie is being made about Napoleon then they are going to need a white actor, but if a company wants to hire a computer tech it doesnt matter what race the person is.

Think about these things before you start patting yourself on the back.

	28-05-2002 17:20									#88
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quote: Originally posted by GP I agree with Tingkai that national quotas should not be used in this way. If we want to constrain immigration, it makes more sense to restrict immigrants by some color blind test of the attributes we decide we want. For instance language ability, job skills, dedication to Amreican ideals (real basic ones like honesty and freedom, agreeable to Republicans and Democrats). But such screeens should be color blind. no quotas, one way or the other.

It would be a step in the right direction, but would it be enough to curb racial tensions?

	28-05-2002 17:25									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Zhu Yuanzhang Hmmm a ways up the thread in one of his less coherent bits Cal says the he favors achieving a "one race" country. How exactly are we got go about this, I wouldn't really like to know before your puff finishes dissipating

Not so much a "one race" country, but at least a country where one race is the vast majority. Isnt this what we would end up with anyway if we continue to mix races on a grand scale? As I said, I think race mixing is good biologically, but race mixing on the present scale seems to have a great social cost (race riots etc). Is the social cost worth the biological benefit?

	28-05-2002 17:26									#90
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quote: Originally posted by GP Why do people always give such low troll scores. It's almost llike they want to give lower scores to more effective and hateful trolls. This is definitly more than a 1 or 2. I gave somebody a 5/10 recently...even though I hated their comment because it was original and insiciviely cutting. I really hated Lincoln's "eating troll" but it was clearly a high scorer...

I give scores all over the map. Recently gave someone a 9.8/10 score. Can't remember who...