28-05-2002 21:42									#121
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Tingkai-
You already have your mind made up about me, so I cant be bothered trying to change it. You dont want to listen.

	28-05-2002 21:48									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Ergo, the white race, by this rationale, is superior, as you only want "small mixtures" from the other races. Sounds like white supremacy to me.

The reason I was proposing small mixtures is for social reasons, not because I want to keep the white race "pure". I would say the same for any other race, that for the sake of social stability, small mixtures might be the way to go.

quote: Why are you so focused on creating the master...er, ideal race? Do you faovr eugenics then to weed out unfavorable racial characteristics? Which are the best specimens, and which are the less-than-best? Who judges that?

I favor non-coercive eugenics. Genetic engineering that is. Nobody is competent to judge who is the best specimen and who isnt, but we can eliminate defective genes through genetic engineering.

	28-05-2002 22:21									#123
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Defective genes, as in those that cause disease?

	28-05-2002 22:25									#124
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Defective genes, as in those that cause disease?

No, the ripped and faded ones that wont stay up any more.


Yes, I am referring to disease causing genes.

	29-05-2002 02:11									#125
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Cal, it seems like you are confusing two different ideas.

1. Mixing of peoples genetically.
2. Mixing of peoples geographically.

The two are different and do not necessarily go together. I know you want to talk about both, but you need to clarify your thoughts.

	29-05-2002 02:36									#126
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quote: Originally posted by GP Cal, it seems like you are confusing two different ideas. 1. Mixing of peoples genetically. 2. Mixing of peoples geographically. The two are different and do not necessarily go together. I know you want to talk about both, but you need to clarify your thoughts.

Ok, hows this?

Mixing of peoples (different races) is always genetically a good thing.

Mixing of peoples geographically is ok in moderation, but if it gets out of hand, too much competition can be created.

Those are my thoughts.

Better?

	29-05-2002 04:22									#127
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clearer...

	29-05-2002 04:23									#128
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Your thoughts?

	29-05-2002 06:44									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Your thoughts?

Already stated. I'm not in favor of country-specific quotas (wether to limit or increase diversity).

I think if we ration entry it should be with some kind of crietria that lets us get "good citizens". Possible items: ability to get a good job (brain drain), sympathy to US values/knowledge of our history (a "mini" vesion of the test for citizenry), English language ability.

	29-05-2002 08:00									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Tingkai- You already have your mind made up about me, so I cant be bothered trying to change it. You dont want to listen.

I am listening to you. I'm listening to how you dig a hole in the ground. I'm listening to your incoherent statements. I'm listening to your nebulous statements. I'm listening to how you say "I wonder if" when you really mean "I believe."

Let's sum up your comments:
1) You repeated state that you "wonder" if the elimination of race criteria in the 1965 immigration act has led to increased racial tension, when in fact you have already made up your mind that it has created this tension.
2) You claim that multicultural immigration creates racial tension, but you have provided no evidence to back up this belief.
3) You think that immigration should be done in "moderation," but you have failed to define what you mean by moderation.
4) You think that racism is the fault of immigratants rather than racists.

Do you have any evidence to back up your beliefs?

	29-05-2002 08:14									#131
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hmmm...maybe he's worried about his own visa?

	29-05-2002 08:41									#132
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quote: Originally posted by GP Already stated. I'm not in favor of country-specific quotas (wether to limit or increase diversity). I think if we ration entry it should be with some kind of crietria that lets us get "good citizens". Possible items: ability to get a good job (brain drain), sympathy to US values/knowledge of our history (a "mini" vesion of the test for citizenry), English language ability.

I wouldn't worry too much about English language and US values.

Look at the history of immigration to North America. In most cases, the first generation struggles with English if it is not their native language, but the second generation is fluent in English.

As for US values, I think most immigrants admire and want to be part of the American society, just as most immigrants to Canada want to be part of Canadian society. The immigrants to North America are far different from the economic migrants to Hong Kong, for example. Most expats have no great love for the Hong Kong way of life.

	29-05-2002 09:11									#133
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Ting,

It's not a big concern to me. But if we need a filter, this might be one. Basically would be a "lighter version" of the citizenry test that we give. Also, for those people who do worry about Balkanization (perhaps they feel the melting pot is less effective...been replaced by a salad bowl or whatever), than this would be a more direct way to address those concerns and would not be ethnically based (as country quotas are.)

	29-05-2002 09:30									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Everyone seems so sure that given time, racial bigotry will be reduced through integration. Is there any evidence for this?

Yes. Every mixed neighborhood is proof.

quote: Has this happened in the past with other civilizations? Have racial tensions increased or decreased in the US since non-white immigration was increased?

Decreased. Even you should be able to tell. I don't see people using electric cattle prods on people for wanting to vote anymore.

quote: I think the answers to these questions are not as simple as many people think. It would be fantastic if we could have a society of diverse people without racial tension, but is it just a pipe dream?

I think they are pretty darn clear and only the blind, ignorant or racist would deny that.

	29-05-2002 10:25									#135
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quote: Mixing of peoples geographically is ok in moderation, but if it gets out of hand, too much competition can be created.

To create racially biased legislation would be to reinforce the opinion that race matters. To try and disguise 'protect the white majority' as a reduction in immigration numbers (all around) is no different in the message it sends. It panders to those who are racially biased.

	29-05-2002 11:26									#136
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quote: Originally posted by GP Ting, It's not a big concern to me. But if we need a filter, this might be one. Basically would be a "lighter version" of the citizenry test that we give. Also, for those people who do worry about Balkanization (perhaps they feel the melting pot is less effective...been replaced by a salad bowl or whatever), than this would be a more direct way to address those concerns and would not be ethnically based (as country quotas are.)

I agree. There's nothing wrong with creating a language requirement for immigration. Although for family re-unification and refugees, it is a different matter.

	29-05-2002 19:45									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson A big part of this discussion is about immigration laws and how they affect society. I think you can see the effect humans have on those?

yeah but in the long run people migrate anyway- thats what we do, why do you think we have the long legs huh? policy making to stop or encourage immigration is like trying to stop a desert from moving windward, sure you can slow it down or something- but the same tendancy that bought Native Americans to the Americas in the first place from Asia will continue to do its thing.

Are you saying the current administration will have an effect on who migrates to America or anywhere else in 150 years time? thats the least amount of time you have to think in terms of for these things if your talking about more then just 'this part of town' or 'that part of town' or 'the ghetto' or 'the more affluent part of town' etc.

	30-05-2002 00:44									#138
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quote: Originally posted by problem_child Are you saying the current administration will have an effect on who migrates to America or anywhere else in 150 years time?

No. I'm saying that if we have racially biased legislation, it reinforces racial bias in our population while it is in effect. That time period could be a few years or a few centuries. It doesn't have anything to do with which administration passes that legislation.

To claim humans (and their ideas) have no effect on society is unrealistic. A good idea can last and have profound effects on future generations. So can a bad one. How can you say it doesn't matter what we do?

quote: No human political system has lasted even three thousand years (thats including religions) what hope does some American immigration policy, political correctness or 'racist' world-view have of facing out the hundreds of thousands of years it takes a race to come into existance- None.

From a biological standpoint humans can make a huge impact in a very short amount of time. You pointed to Hitler's failure to carry out his plans as a reason to not care about racism? Luckily most genocides have been thwarted, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't guard ourselves from having it happen again.

In science we are getting pretty close to being able to genetically engineer people. It won't be long before humans have the ability to drastically alter the species biologically. Don't you worry that how this ability is handled could be influenced by racial motivations?

	30-05-2002 02:30									#139
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I'm sure some religions have lasted more than three thousand years...Taoism? Zoroastrianism?

	30-05-2002 03:06									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai 4) You think that racism is the fault of immigratants rather than racists.

You mean this is what he stated or implied??

That's just great.

	30-05-2002 03:37									#141
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I implied that racism is exacerbated by immigration policies not that its immigrants fault. As usual Tingkai distorts my words. Why dont you read what I said for yourself MrFun instead of just taking his word for it.

	30-05-2002 03:52									#142
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You could say that desegragation inflamed racism with a very parallel argument...

	30-05-2002 03:57									#143
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Which is why pandering to racists is not something that the government should try to do.

	30-05-2002 03:59									#144
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Yeah, but I am in favor of desegragation. If the people are already here you have to give them the same rights as others, but people who are still in other countries should come second to US citizens.

	30-05-2002 04:32									#145
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It just sounds like you are trying to protect a white majority. What about the minority groups that already feel threatened by that majority, and would feel more threatened if it was locked in place? Would you be advocating the same thing if the government decided we would have a chinese majority, and used immigration to keep any racist chinese citizens of the US feeling unintimidated?

Most people in the US aren't racist though, at least I hope not. I admit that I felt a bit uncomfortable my first time in an integrated environment. It was kindergarten and it took about 5 minutes to get over. The sooner it happens, the easier it is to get over.

quote: but people who are still in other countries should come second to US citizens.

I think this is a bad idea. The constitution says "all men are created equal", not "all US citizens are created equal". I admit that completely free immigration might not be in the best interests of anyone, foriegn or domestic. It's an economic reasoning though, as our economy probably could not support the vast influx of population. Thus it needs to be limited somehow, but race should have nothing to do with it, and isn't the reason for the necessary limits either.

	30-05-2002 04:42									#146
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ok, well I guess the only way to know the answer to my question for sure is to wait and see...

	30-05-2002 05:13									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I think this is a bad idea. The constitution says "all men are created equal", not "all US citizens are created equal". I admit that completely free immigration might not be in the best interests of anyone, foriegn or domestic. It's an economic reasoning though, as our economy probably could not support the vast influx of population. Thus it needs to be limited somehow, but race should have nothing to do with it, and isn't the reason for the necessary limits either.

The Constitution does NOT say that. Thats the Declaration of Independence which is not a legal document. It was largely written by someone that obviously did not believe it. Slaveowners are not people that think men are created equal so that leaves Jefferson as a hypocrite when he wrote that. Brilliant man but a hypocrite. He clearly thought ALL WHITE MALES are created equal and maybe only if they own land.

Unlimited immigration is a realy bad idea. There are too damn many people in California all ready and a VERY large percentage of immigrants legal and illegal come here. I want ZPG and I want it twenty years ago. California has too many Congressmen allready.

	30-05-2002 05:30									#148
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Sorry, I get the two confused sometimes. It still isn't a good idea to view people born inside the US somehow superior or more worthy to those who aren't. Nationalistic elitism is every bit as bad as racial elitism.

I agree that unlimited immigration just wouldn't work.

	30-05-2002 05:49									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Nationalistic elitism is every bit as bad as racial elitism.

In a way it is. Its the best weve got at the moment though. Humanity is slowly evolving its concept of brotherhood to include larger and larger groups. When we finally recognise that all men and women are brothers and sisters the evolution will be complete.

quote: This secularistic human society, notwithstanding its unparalleled materialistic achievement, is slowly disintegrating. The chief cohesive force resisting this disintegration of antagonism is nationalism. And nationalism is the chief barrier to world peace.

	30-05-2002 05:56									#150
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There are people who can see past nationality. It definitely isn't the best perspective we have. It's just a common one.