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Caligastia
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Its not the best perspective we have, but being the most common one it is a cohesive force.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
ok, well I guess the only way to know the answer to my question for sure is to wait and see... |
You could answer your question by looking at the history of immigration to North America, but you wouldn't like the answer.
There have always been waves of immigration that change the social fabric of Canada and the United States. The new immigrants often faced extensive prejudices, and were prejudiced themselves, but over time they became part of the new society, adding to and absorbing from the existing cultures.
A case in point, during the late 1840s, more than 300,000 Irish landed in Canada. As Roman Catholics, they had different values from the existing English-Canadians, and as English Catholics, they had different values from the French Catholics. While they were initially seen as outsiders, they soon became just another part of Canadian society.
The vibrancy of Canada and the United States owes much to a willingness to accept immigrants from around the world.
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ZaphodBeeblebrx
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Henniker, New Hampshire, USA, North America, Planet Earth, Sol System, Orion Sub-Arm, Perseus Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Cluster, Local Super-Cluster, Visible Universe
Mar 2002
time: 00:19
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As a Jew I feel a need to jump in here.
My People have been on both sides of this question, and let me tell you, the Grass IS, always Greener.
On the upside, Caligastia seems to be more a Eugenicist, than a Racist, which depending on the Methods that he advocates, might be a bettering of the lot for Everyone, rather than just a few. If, on the other hand, he's for Mass-Murder, well . . .
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
You could answer your question by looking at the history of immigration to North America, but you wouldn't like the answer.
There have always been waves of immigration that change the social fabric of Canada and the United States. The new immigrants often faced extensive prejudices, and were prejudiced themselves, but over time they became part of the new society, adding to and absorbing from the existing cultures.
A case in point, during the late 1840s, more than 300,000 Irish landed in Canada. As Roman Catholics, they had different values from the existing English-Canadians, and as English Catholics, they had different values from the French Catholics. While they were initially seen as outsiders, they soon became just another part of Canadian society.
The vibrancy of Canada and the United States owes much to a willingness to accept immigrants from around the world. |
Yes, but the immigration of 300,000 irish, while creating cultural predjudice, wouldnt have created racial predjudice on top of that. Or were the irish looked upon as being a different race?
I agree with your last sentence in particular, but I wouldnt say that the willingness to accept immigrants is directly proportional to the vibrancy of the US and Canada. I think there has to be a limit to our willingness to accept immigrants. Canada is a good example of a country that is too open to immigrants. All you have to do to live in Canada with all the benefits of a citizen is turn up on the border and claim refugee status. This is a problem, as many groups like Al-Quaeda are now looking to Canada as the perfect place to launch attacks on the US.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by ZaphodBeeblebrx
On the upside, Caligastia seems to be more a Eugenicist, than a Racist, which depending on the Methods that he advocates, might be a bettering of the lot for Everyone, rather than just a few. If, on the other hand, he's for Mass-Murder, well . . . |
What you say is a reasonably correct assessment of my motivation, but do I really have to state that I am not for mass murder? I support non-coercive eugenics.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
What's the difference between cultural prejudice and racial prejudice. It all has the same effect. |
Yes, but unless the Irish were viewed as being a different race then they would only have faced cultural predjudice, not a combination of the two.
quote:
We do have immigration limits for economic reasons. Refugees are vetted, just like everywhere else. As for security, Canada is about the same as the States.
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Actually it isnt. Canada is far more liberal about immigration than the US. I saw a fantastic documentary about this a couple of weeks ago. It had a lot of interviews with immigration officers etc...interesting
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
Yes, but unless the Irish were viewed as being a different race then they would only have faced cultural predjudice, not a combination of the two.
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So if someone refuses to associate with you because of your culture, is that somehow better than a person who refuses to associate with you because of your culture and your colour?
You still have not acknowledge the fact that attitudes changed.
By the way, the immigration did not cause the prejudice. The English dispised the Irish before the mass immigration occured.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
So if someone refuses to associate with you because of your culture, is that somehow better than a person who refuses to associate with you because of your culture and your colour? |
For a bigot, its less reason to hate isnt it?
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You still have not acknowledge the fact that attitudes changed.
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Attitudes have changed, but have they changed enough? Look at the Rodney King riots in LA, violent racial hatred still is a problem on both sides.
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By the way, the immigration did not cause the prejudice. The English dispised the Irish before the mass immigration occured. |
Right, but sometimes people are ok with other races and cultures until they move next door. I bet some of the more tolerant english who had irish move into their neighbourhoods bigoted because of it.
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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
What's the difference between cultural prejudice and racial prejudice. It all has the same effect.
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[/QUOTE]
Well a person can change their cultural affiliation. For instance they can actually stop demanding the removal of English signs in Quebec. Thats cultural prejudice. No one has to stick with that though.
Only Michael Jackson can change his race. Or is it his sex?
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethelred
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Well a person can change their cultural affiliation. [/QUOTE]
That should be self-evident. The effects of cultural and racial prejudice are the same. A person who is lynched because of their religion suffers the same harm as a person lynched because of their race and the same harm as a person lynched because of their race and religion.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
Attitudes have changed, but have they changed enough? Look at the Rodney King riots in LA, violent racial hatred still is a problem on both sides.
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The LA riots are another example that answers your concerns.
Your initial premise was that immigration causes hatred and violence, yet the LA riots were not sparked by new immigration. It was the result of the long-standing grievences of the black community towards a perceived white justice system.
Korean-American storeowners got caught in the cross-fire, but that was due to economic differences not because of immigration.
The basic problem with Cali's theory is that he assumes immigration creates new prejudices. The reality is that bigots of any race don't need a reason to hate. If there are no immigrants then they will just turn on other people who are already there. If there are 10 immigrants, they will be hated just as much as if there are 1,000 immigrants.
Cali thinks that the US should slow down immigration, or institute race-based immigration rules, because there are bigots who hate immigrants.
Why should the US sacrifice economic growth just to pander to the bigots?
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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
Korean-American storeowners got caught in the cross-fire, but that was due to economic differences not because of immigration.
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It didn't help that they tend to be rude. Something to do with Korean culture. I don't know why. No other Asian culture has that reputation in California.
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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
That should be self-evident. The effects of cultural and racial prejudice are the same. |
The effects can indeed be the same. However as I said and you seem to have failed to understand the point, culture is not in your genes. Culture changes and cultures can clash without prejiduce being involved. Asians don't have a problem with eating dogs or cats for instance. It creaps most Europeans out. Many asians don't understand queing up. Japanese do and they have a lot less problem adapting in the US.
Mexicans eat dog too but they don't seem to do it in the US. I have never seen a Buritto Perro available in the US.
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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
The basic problem with Cali's theory is that he assumes immigration creates new prejudices. The reality is that bigots of any race don't need a reason to hate. If there are no immigrants then they will just turn on other people who are already there. If there are 10 immigrants, they will be hated just as much as if there are 1,000 immigrants. |
Biggotry isn't really about race or culture in many cases. Those are just excuses for releasing their inner *******.
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Cali thinks that the US should slow down immigration, or institute race-based immigration rules, because there are bigots who hate immigrants.
Why should the US sacrifice economic growth just to pander to the bigots? |
Well slower immigration definitly allows more time for adaptation. It also makes it harder for imigrants to insulate themselves from the changes they must make to adapt to the US or Canada. People adapt faster when they are not surrounded by by their own culture as is often the case. Chinatown as Little Saigons are not really good things overall if a high percentage of the imigrants are living in such places.
German towns and Little Sicily too but I don't run into those on the West Coast.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethelred
It didn't help that they tend to be rude. Something to do with Korean culture. I don't know why. No other Asian culture has that reputation in California. |
Well they may well have a reputation for being rude, but is it a fair reputation? Could it be that when people meet a rude Asian-looking person, they just think "Oh he must be Korean."
Some of the things considered normal in Korea would be considered rude in North America, but a lot of things North Americans do is considered rude by many people. So it is not so much that they tend to be rude, but rather there is a cultural difference. That difference will disappear over time.
quote:
Originally posted by Ethelred
The effects can indeed be the same. However as I said and you seem to have failed to understand the point, culture is not in your genes.
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I think it is you who has failed to understand the point. When I said "That is self-evident" I was agreeing with your point that people can change their cultural habits.
quote:
Originally posted by Ethelred
Culture changes and cultures can clash without prejiduce being involved. Asians don't have a problem with eating dogs or cats for instance. It creaps most Europeans out. Many asians don't understand queing up. Japanese do and they have a lot less problem adapting in the US.
Mexicans eat dog too but they don't seem to do it in the US. I have never seen a Buritto Perro available in the US.
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That's a very odd statement. First, you say that cultures can clash without prejudice and then you demonstrate cultural prejudice.
You're saying Asians this, Asians that. These are gross generalizations that are not true. So you look down on Asians for things that they do not even do. That's prejudice.
Your claim that Asians don't have a problem with eating dogs or cats is completely false.
Have you ever seen dog or cat offered in an Asian restaurant in the U.S.?
Most of Asia does not have a tradition of eating these animals.
The only place that I know of where it was widely accepted was in Korea, but it was recently banned in the south. The ban upset a lot of the older people, but the ban was supported by the younger generations (and many of the older generations) who think it is barbaric to eat dogs.
I don't know of any Asian country where eating cat is a tradition.
As for queuing, it is not as common as in North America, but it does occur. If you come to Hong Kong, you will see that most people line up for the bus, but the subway is a free-for-all. Then again, the subway in Toronto is the same thing during rush hour.
I have seen many white North Americans jumping a queue, but I don't make a prejudiced assumption that all whites jump a queue.
quote:
Originally posted by Ethelred
Well slower immigration definitly allows more time for adaptation. It also makes it harder for imigrants to insulate themselves from the changes they must make to adapt to the US or Canada. |
History says otherwise. Immigration from China to Canada was extremely limited in the first half of the 20th Century, but the adaptation rate was not much different than it is now. Chinatowns existed back then when immigration was limited, these communities exist now.
The reason for these communities is simply economics. If one store sells Chinese products and does a lot of business, then an entreprenuer will see an opportunity and open a similar store nearby to tap into an existing market. That makes more sense then opening up a Chinese-products store in an area where there will be no customers.
Contrary to popular opinions, most immigrants do not isolate themselves. They may gather together because they share common interests, but this does not mean that they close themselves off from the rest of the society.
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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
Well they may well have a reputation for being rude, but is it a fair reputation? Could it be that when people meet a rude Asian-looking person, they just think "Oh he must be Korean." |
Or maybe they notice the rudeness first.
Most people can't tell if someone is Korean by looking. I can sometimes but not with perfect accuracy. I had a lot of Asian customers. Lots of Vietnamese, Korean, Japanese, Philipino and some Chinese in the photo shop I worked in. I had to get their names which made it possible to be sure which was which. I didn't care the names just came with the job.
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I think it is you who has failed to understand the point. When I said "That is self-evident" I was agreeing with your point that people can change their cultural habits. |
Except that my point that its different for race. One can be mitigated through cultural assimilation. The other cannot and does not usuall entail an inherent cultural difference in the US.
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That's a very odd statement. First, you say that cultures can clash without prejudice and then you demonstrate cultural prejudice.
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Again you evade the point. Prejiduce is not involved when the neighborhood pets become someones dinner. I don't think it has happened often. It was an example. You are assuming things.
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You're saying Asians this, Asians that. These are gross generalizations that are not true. So you look down on Asians for things that they do not even do. That's prejudice. |
You aren't aware of the high numbers of Asian that have imigrated to Orange County. I used them for examples of culture clash since I know them. I don't know the culture clash in Little Sicily but I mentioned it so you would get the message. You chose to assume some sort of bigotry on my part instead of comprehending.
You seem prejiduced against discussing culture clash.
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Your claim that Asians don't have a problem with eating dogs or cats is completely false. |
You are in error. It depends on the specific Asian culture of course.
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Have you ever seen dog or cat offered in an Asian restaurant in the U.S.? |
I wouldn't expect to. Its not comercially available nor is it legal here. Nor do I go to restraunts much. The restraunts would have a hard time keeping its liscence when the Health Board came around.
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Most of Asia does not have a tradition of eating these animals.
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Most of Asia is seriously short on those animals. I don't think cat would popular in Thailand though. That really is where Siamese Cats came from.
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The only place that I know of where it was widely accepted was in Korea, but it was recently banned in the south. The ban upset a lot of the older people, but the ban was supported by the younger generations (and many of the older generations) who think it is barbaric to eat dogs. |
So thats one. Another is Viet Namese. Or was anyway when they first came here after the fall of Saigon. I lived in Little Saigon AKA Westminster California. Its marked that way on the freeway ramps.
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I don't know of any Asian country where eating cat is a tradition. |
It wouldn't be. Not enough cats in nations where its OK to eat cats. There is a difference between acceptable and traditional.
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As for queuing, it is not as common as in North America, but it does occur. If you come to Hong Kong, you will see that most people line up for the bus, but the subway is a free-for-all. Then again, the subway in Toronto is the same thing during rush hour.
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Hong Kong was British till recently. Queing is a British word, its called lining up in the US. I would expect most people in Hong Kong to be familiar with lining up.
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I have seen many white North Americans jumping a queue, but I don't make a prejudiced assumption that all whites jump a queue. |
You don't understand the difference between prejiduce and discussing a culture clash.
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History says otherwise. Immigration from China to Canada was extremely limited in the first half of the 20th Century, but the adaptation rate was not much different than it is now. Chinatowns existed back then when immigration was limited, these communities exist now. |
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Actually history doesn't say otherwise for most cultures. Chinatowns first arose due to Chinese not being allowed to live elsewhere in California. Little Saigon did not arise that way. It arose because so many people moved in at once. In other parts of the US that didn't happen.
I have no idea how Little Seoul arose but it did. I can't even read the signs for most of the shops there.
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Contrary to popular opinions, most immigrants do not isolate themselves. They may gather together because they share common interests, but this does not mean that they close themselves off from the rest of the society. |
They are ABLE to close themselves off when there is a high enough concentration. Lower immigration rates will result in lower concentrations. Many of the older Viet Namese in the area still haven't learned much English despite being here for over a quater century.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
The LA riots are another example that answers your concerns.
Your initial premise was that immigration causes hatred and violence, yet the LA riots were not sparked by new immigration. It was the result of the long-standing grievences of the black community towards a perceived white justice system. |
I was using that as an example of racial tensions not specifically resulting from immigration. I guess it was slightly irrelevant, but you seem to be justifying these riots. Blacks and whites suffered bodily damage and destruction of property in the LA riots, so the rioters were basically just a bunch of thugs who wanted to smash things and use race as an excuse.
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The basic problem with Cali's theory is that he assumes immigration creates new prejudices. The reality is that bigots of any race don't need a reason to hate. If there are no immigrants then they will just turn on other people who are already there. If there are 10 immigrants, they will be hated just as much as if there are 1,000 immigrants. |
I should clarify. Immigration on a large scale creates cultural clashes. Racism is partly a result of this.
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Cali thinks that the US should slow down immigration, or institute race-based immigration rules, because there are bigots who hate immigrants. |
Immigrants from european countries are more likely to assimilate culturally. Im not proposing we cater to bigots, I just want to reduce cultural differences that cause violence between races. If we all have similar cultural values then we are more likely to treat each other as brothers and sisters. After all, that is what all humans on this planet are.
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mindseye
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A Yankee living in Shanghai
Apr 1999
time: 13:19
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quote:
You will also learn that eating cats or dogs is quite uncommon. It is definitely not done in the developed parts of the region. |
Huh? From everything I have been able to gather, dog is eaten in most of China, especially in the North. It's a winter-time dish. It's easy enough to find here in Shanghai (presumably a "developed" place) - and quite tasty, I might add.  In fact, the Swiss have been complaining over the increasing number of Saint Bernard farms in China. It seems the St. Bernard is a great breed to raise as livestock, given their weight, gentle nature, and large litter size.
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I don't know of any Asian country where eating cat is a tradition. |
Aren't you from Hong Kong? I personally know at least two people who have eaten cat - both instances in Guangdong, no surprise I've held many classroom discussions on cultural differences in meat-eating. I ask students to brainstorm on what meats are not eaten in China. The list is pretty short.  I routinely encounter students who have sampled cat, bat, monkey, scorpions, and various other critters.
Last edited by mindseye on 31-05-2002 at 21:46
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30-05-2002 06:01
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