 |
| |
|
|
KrazyHorse
|
 |
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:19
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
I don't think this one biological race theory will ever happen. Inter-racial marriages will swing back and forth.
My grandmother was white, my grandfather was Chinese, my mother looks predominately white.
My father is chinese, my sisters and I look predominately Chinese (make sense when you think that three of four grandparents are Chinese)
My sister's husband is white, their two boys look white (husband's grandparents are white (four), my sister's grandparents are three Chinese, one white so the kids g-grandparents are five white, three Chinese)
If one of the boys marries a chinese girl then their kids will have five white great-great-grandparents and 11 Chinese great-great-grandparents so that child will likely look Chinese. If the wife is white then three Chinese g-g-grandparents and 13 white g-g-grandparents, the child will likely look white.
Edit: changed references to grandparents, great-grandparents, great-great grandparents. |
Once mixed never unmixed (except for slow evolutionary crawl). It's an entropy thing...
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Caligastia
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Does anyone doubt my accusation that Caligastia is racist now? Hell, I'm gonna go one better. Cali's a white supremicist. There's no point in arguing with scum like this. He's not gonna change his mind. He thinks that other races are inferior, he is opposed to doing anything that would ameliorate the effects of white racism, he wants to pander to white racism by lowering or banning cetain races from immigrating. He may as well just come out and admit that he wants the US to be a whites-only country.
Go the **** back to New Zealand, you useless ****! |
Where exactly did I say that the white race is superior? I said that race mixing is a good thing biologically. Is this what a white supremacist would say? No.
The whole point of this thread is to question whether we are moving too fast in our efforts to improve biologically. Is the biological benefit worth the social cost? This point seems to have escaped you in your outrage.
Race mixing can also be a good thing culturally because without some cultural diversity, culture can stagnate, but too much cultural diversity can divide.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Caligastia
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
Then why aren't you advocating unlimited immigration? Surely that's the best way to achieve ethnic homogeneity |
Biologically, yes. Socially? I have my doubts. As I said, I am in favour of race mixing because of the biological benefits (adn some cultural). My question is are we moving too fast?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Caligastia
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
My hunch is the "one race" he favors is whites, |
No its not. A race composed entirely of whites could benefit greatly from small mixtures from the best the other races have to offer. The ideal is to have a race composed of the best specimens of all races.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Caligastia
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Aeson
No. We don't structure immigration to improve biologically either. That would be wrong as well. |
Immigration is already structured in a way that favors biological improvement, whether we realize it or not.
quote:
We aren't trying to engineer the human race through forced breeding. People have a right to procreate with whomever they choose. It shouldn't have anything to do with immigration. |
Whether we are trying to or not, there is a lot of racial mixing going on in the US, which is biologically a good thing.
quote:
The social cost? Bigotry is bred through segregation and discrimination. Further discrimination would just lead to further ethnic/racial tensions. |
Im not advocating segregation, its too late to do anything about the people who are already here.
quote:
Moving too slowly, and in some cases (more specific quotas in the 1990 act for one) in the wrong direction. |
Large scale race mixing undoubtedly forces many people to abandon bigotry, but at the same time it appears that it creates at least as much as it eliminates.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Caligastia
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Aeson
And the government should never have anything to do with promoting this 'ideal'. Procreation is a choice made on an individual level. |
I agree, but at the moment the govt is promoting the next best thing, which is a race consisting of all specimens of all races. Not forcibly on an individual basis, but through general immigration policies.
quote:
Are you advocating that the government try to regulate interaction between acceptable "specimens" by means of immigration? |
No, thats not feasable.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Tingkai
|
|
To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:19
|
|
Cali: Everytime you put up a new post, you dig yourself deeper into the ground. The more you post, the more you come off as a neo-Nazi
quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
Im not advocating segregation, its too late to do anything about the people who are already here.
|
So you like the idea of segregation, but you think it is too late to do it?
quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
Large scale race mixing undoubtedly forces many people to abandon bigotry, but at the same time it appears that it creates at least as much as it eliminates. |
Cali claims that the US now has large scale "race mixing" since 1965. This "race mixing" creates as much racism as it eliminates. Therefore, according to the logic of Cali, Americans are just as racist as they were in 1965. Ya right.
quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
Race mixing can also be a good thing culturally because without some cultural diversity, culture can stagnate, but too much cultural diversity can divide.
|
So you have all of these individual and seperate cultures. According to the logic of Cali, if you add a bit of Culture B and C into Culture A, Culture A will become seperate from other cultures. Whereas before, Culture A was, well, seperate.
quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
No its not. A race composed entirely of whites could benefit greatly from small mixtures from the best the other races have to offer. The ideal is to have a race composed of the best specimens of all races.
|
So Cali's ideal would be to kill off the undesirables specimens of all races. Where have we heard that one before. 
Last edited by Tingkai on 28-05-2002 at 19:29
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Aeson
|
 |
orangesoda
Nov 2001
time: 22:19
|
|
quote:
Immigration is already structured in a way that favors biological improvement, whether we realize it or not. |
You are muddling intent and effect. The intent behind removing racial quotas in immigration is to give everyone a fair shot. It is not to genetically improve the population. Genetic improvement is a good thing, as long as it is voluntary, which it is under the current system. The difference between forced and voluntary is huge, even if the end result is the same.
quote:
I agree, but at the moment the govt is promoting the next best thing, which is a race consisting of all specimens of all races. Not forcibly on an individual basis, but through general immigration policies. |
I don't think promoting is the right word. The government is keeping out of making racial discriminations when dealing with immigration for the most part. One of the effects of this is more racial diversity. If only people of a certain race wanted to immigrate, that effect would change though. We are not forcing racial diversity, rather allowing it through individual choice. That is the difference. To disallow it would be wrong.
quote:
Large scale race mixing undoubtedly forces many people to abandon bigotry, but at the same time it appears that it creates at least as much as it eliminates. |
It doesn't create bigotry unless you compare it to a completely pure racial environment where even the idea of other races isn't present. People don't become bigots because of integration though. That is a personal choice that is made regardless of what other races are present. You could put all the KKK in Idaho, ship out all non-whites, and the KKK still would hate. And worse, their children would never be exposed to any ideas other than hatred.
On the other hand, a child who grows up in a diverse environment is more likely to not consider race an important and divisive concept.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Caligastia
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
Cali: Everytime you put up a new post, you dig yourself deeper into the ground. The more you post, the more you come off as a neo-Nazi |
Neo-nazis can see positives in race mixing? News to me.
quote:
So you like the idea of segregation, but you think it is too late to do it? |
No, segregation is not the answer. As I said, there has to be some racial mixing for the species to improve.
quote:
Cali claims that the US now has large scale "race mixing" since 1965. This "race mixing" creates as much racism as it eliminates. Therefore, according to the logic of Cali, Americans are just as racist as they were in 1965. Ya right. |
I never really made the statement. I just said it seems that way to me. Why dont you tell me why it doesnt seem that way to you?
quote:
So you have all of these individual and seperate cultures. According to the logic of Cali, if you add mix a bit of Culture B and C into Culture A, Culture A will become seperate from other cultures. Whereas before, Culture A was, well, seperate. |
I dont want cultures to be totally seperate either, I just think that its in a nation's best interests to have common ideals. If you have too many different cultures and ideals it creates disunity.
quote:
So Cali's ideal would be to kill off the undesirables specimens of all races. Where have we heard that one before. |
No, thats not what I said at all. I said that for the best results race mixing should take place between the best specimens of each race. Failing that, mixing of all specimens is still good.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Caligastia
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Aeson
You are muddling intent and effect. The intent behind removing racial quotas in immigration is to give everyone a fair shot. It is not to genetically improve the population. Genetic improvement is a good thing, as long as it is voluntary, which it is under the current system. The difference between forced and voluntary is huge, even if the end result is the same. |
I agree, the positive biological effect is not intentional.
quote:
I don't think promoting is the right word. The government is keeping out of making racial discriminations when dealing with immigration for the most part. One of the effects of this is more racial diversity. If only people of a certain race wanted to immigrate, that effect would change though. We are not forcing racial diversity, rather allowing it through individual choice. That is the difference. To disallow it would be wrong. |
Again, perhaps its not intentional, and I agree that disallowing it completely would be wrong, but are we going too far?
quote:
It doesn't create bigotry unless you compare it to a completely pure racial environment where even the idea of other races isn't present. People don't become bigots because of integration though. That is a personal choice that is made regardless of what other races are present. You could put all the KKK in Idaho, ship out all non-whites, and the KKK still would hate. And worse, their children would never be exposed to any ideas other than hatred. |
I think that racial predjudice is something that is "hard wired" to a certain extent. It is correct to say that race mixing doesnt create bigotry, but it seems to exacerbate it.
quote:
On the other hand, a child who grows up in a diverse environment is more likely to not consider race an important and divisive concept. |
Thats probably true, but does this have enough of an effect on society that it will reduce racial hatred to acceptable levels?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Caligastia
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Aeson
I doubt there is any genetic reasoning going on in bigotry. There is a basic fear of the unknown that is instinctual which can lead to bigotry in a non-integrated environment. That is the main reason why integration helps decrease bigotry. |
I agree.
quote:
Yes, you just have to give it time |
Everyone seems so sure that given time, racial bigotry will be reduced through integration. Is there any evidence for this? Has this happened in the past with other civilizations? Have racial tensions increased or decreased in the US since non-white immigration was increased?
I think the answers to these questions are not as simple as many people think. It would be fantastic if we could have a society of diverse people without racial tension, but is it just a pipe dream?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Caligastia
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Aeson
This is a tough one.
There definitely can be an increase in tension between opposed groups when they are in close proximity to each other. There is more likely to be actual violence between them than if they were seperated obviously. It isn't an argument against integration though, as the groups segregate themselves, which is the problem. |
See, this is exactly what I am getting at. When large groups of people from a different cultural background move to the US, they naturally stick together. If large groups continue to move in to the same areas you eventually have a country within a country. How does this achieve "diversity"? To allow immigrants more time to assimilate into mainstream society, wouldnt it be wiser to slow down the rate of immigration? Perhaps selecting from a wider range of countries, but taking less immigrants from each would be better. With greater variation there would be less chance of immigrants segregating themselves.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
problem_child
|
 |
State of the Animal
Mar 2000
time: 05:19
|
|
I don't think (nor want) there to ever be just one race, all the races we have now and more would be good. The thing about us human beings is we tend to forget that although we participate in and help mould cultures and societies and social assignments- races are purely in natures domain, evolution, natural genetic entropy, nature isn't a uniformist- and humans don't create races. No amount of social engineering will have an effect on what nature does over the course of hundreds of thousands of years.
Races are beyond our concious abilitiy to control and people should stop trying to 'own' them all the time like nazi's trying to feel possesive of northern europeans and then getting upset when a white guy turns out to be gay or catholic or a communist, or like black people who talk about being proud of being black like they were at gods side that day of creation saying things like: "that colours nice, yeah... no number 5, the brownish-red... here gimme the brush let me mix it, I've got a good eye for these things" (although I understand not letting someone make you feel ashamed of being black, a persons skin-colour or race just is not gonna be on their personal list of achievments or crimes in life).
No human political system has lasted even three thousand years (thats including religions) what hope does some American immigration policy, political correctness or 'racist' world-view have of facing out the hundreds of thousands of years it takes a race to come into existance- None.
Even Hitler was aiming for only one-thousand years of rule... and faced huge problems just trying to define exactly who counted as a 'Jew'- if he'd won he'd have to have invaded and holocausted the Middle-east too, and all the Arabs and vasts swarthes of central Asia to destroy all the actual racial groups from which jewish people are drawn. A couple thousand years of people sticking together becouse of a common religion doesn't alter the underlying racial-genetic realities after all.
Bottom line is this- you may as well be some ants standing around arguing with each-over about what colour they will paint the sky- its simply not something for ants to decide.
Last edited by problem_child on 28-05-2002 at 20:11
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Caligastia
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Aeson
You really have to ask if racial tensions in the US have decreased since the 60's? I'm sure you can see how racial equality has increased throughout our history. Slavery is no more, everyone has equal voting rights, sports, schools, and business are no longer segregated. I wouldn't claim that integration has been the only factor in this, but it has played it's part. |
You seem to be confusing racial tension with racial equality. Racial equality does not necessarity equal less racial tension.
quote:
On a personal level you can see it even more clearly. I know a lot of good, well-meaning people who have archaic racial conceptions. Invariably they are from communities where those they look down on are not present or a very small percentage. All they know about X race is that their parents didn't like them, and neither did their friends parents. |
So because they only have a very limited experience of the people from the other race, their judgement is based on ignorance. The other problem is that when the minority race grows exponentially, they will also feel threatened.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Tingkai
|
|
To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:19
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
Neo-nazis can see positives in race mixing? News to me.
|
We've heard this all before. you say you're not a racist because you like blacks, some of your best friends are black, but then you start talking about how blacks are trash. You claim that can see positives in race mixing and then you advocate race based immigration policies because race mixing is dangerous. You're a wolf in sheep's clothing.
quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
I never really made the statement. I just said it seems that way to me.
|
In other words, you didn't say exactly those words, but that's what you meant.
quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
I just think that its in a nation's best interests to have common ideals.
|
So are you're saying that it is in the nation's best interests that everyone should have Christian ideals or do you want everyone to be Jewish? No rooms for moslems, pinkos, athiests, etc. Oh, and in your world there would be no room for Catholics, or do you want to get rid of the Protestents?
Is it in the best interests of a nation that everyone share the ideals of the Democractic Party, or is it the ideals of the Republican Party, or perhaps for you, the Nazi Party?
In your ideal world, there is no room for dissenting ideals. No room for different beliefs in how life should be lived. No individuality.
quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
I said that for the best results race mixing should take place between the best specimens of each race. |
Yes, we've heard it before. The Nazis tried to create what you wanted, only they tried to limit their world to a small group of European nations. You want to limit the world to a select few from the "right" races. How progressive of you.
And if someone is not the best, perfect specimen, well we know what you would do with them.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Caligastia
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Aeson
Thus the 1965 act. Instead of European immigrants being a huge percentage, every nationality was given the same priority. |
Actually I was applying that to the present. The 1965 act isnt really relevant to discussions of present-day solutions to immigrant groups isolating themselves from society IMO.
quote:
I wasn't claiming they were the same thing, but one leads to the other and vice versa. Can you honestly say you wouldn't have any adverse feelings towards someone who took away your rights? Can you honestly say you wouldn't get along better with someone who helped you regain them?
|
Sure, equal rights can be helpful to racial tensions, but racial tensions can be made worse when racial groups feel they have to compete with each other to gain what they see as "equal rights".
quote:
It's the fear of the unknown instinct. Integration isn't going to just happen without some people feeling threatened. I don't think it's a good idea to stop integration just because some people are ignorant. Otherwise they'll never learn better, neither will their children. |
I think its more than ignorance. I think its naturally ingrained in us to feel threatened when a large number of strange people start moving into our societies. The question is whether this can be sufficiently corrected by integration or not.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Caligastia
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by DanS
Cal: There are downsides to racial mixing of one type or another. But there are also lots of positives accruing to society, which you would do well not to downplay. For instance, we enjoy the best of what India has to offer--dedicated and educated immigrants. |
I agree. There are many positives. You raise a good example.
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:19.
Apolyton Time is 00:19. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
28-05-2002 17:27
|