01-06-2002 02:31									#61
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I agree with Tom. Without nukes, India would have invaded already. It is nukes that is the only thing that is stopping them.

	01-06-2002 02:34									#62
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yes, could be, but probably not on the "international border". more of a push with their mountain Infantry divisions in the region of Kashmir, me thinks.

	01-06-2002 02:35									#63
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Well, you could imagine it would work like Israel/Palestina, with India staying in kashmir after their search for Terrorists. You dont really believe they would leave, considering they have their border fights for years about this region?
Than the majority of the ppl. in kashmir prefers to be with pakistan (well, 2. choice after independence) rather than India. And it is certainly not in the best interest of pakistan.

	01-06-2002 02:36									#64
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Without nukes, the Pakistani terror attacks would've been much worse. Thanks to the nukes the Pakistanis must restrain themselves.

	01-06-2002 02:43									#65
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actually , Tom,. latest polls are not so clear. There was this poll today, even....don't remember the results.

	01-06-2002 02:52									#66
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Hm, ok.
But than Pakistan is for a vote decission of the ppl. what they want to do, while India refuses to accept that.
And it is India who threatens to invade in the first place...

	01-06-2002 03:03									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Without nukes, the Pakistani terror attacks would've been much worse. Thanks to the nukes the Pakistanis must restrain themselves.

Assuming that Pakistan has control of al Qaida.

	01-06-2002 03:06									#68
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I think India's position on a referendum is that Pakistan (and China) must first withdraw from the territories they took by force in 1947.

	01-06-2002 03:09									#69
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Actually, Pakistan is an example of one of those corrupt dictatorships the US has been accused of propping up over the years. Patkis has some ideas on this. I assume that history will repeat itself.

Last edited by Ned on 01-06-2002 at 03:34

	01-06-2002 03:28									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 Hm, ok. But than Pakistan is for a vote decission of the ppl. what they want to do, while India refuses to accept that. And it is India who threatens to invade in the first place...

Imagine you Belgian terrorists blown up the Dutch parliament. Those terrorists are part of militias who Belgium supports.

The Dutch ask the Belgians to close the border for them. Belgium replies: "First give us Maastrich!. Oh and btw, if you do anything againsts those militias will we use nukes(assume Belgium has some)!"

Won't some Dutch then not start thinking of invading Belgium?

	01-06-2002 03:39									#71
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Mineral wealth.

Your kidding right? Khasmir has almost no resources. There biggest export is cheap roses and rugs. The entire province has about as much economic value as my town of 50,000.

The root behind the conflict is as Ethcelon said, Bigotry. Both sides hate each other. And there is such a long history of hatred between these two, you cant really blame religon. Well you can, but the root of the problem is more the fact what they have done to each other. Lets see, 1st war Pakistan attacks Khasmir takes 1/2. Second Pakistan Bombs india trys to take the rest. 3rd war, E. Pakistan, aka-Bangledesh (another genius UK idea. To leave 2 areas 1000 miles apart under the administration of one) declares independence. West Pakistan ships men over and crushes E.Pakistan revolt, but India invades E.Pakistan ad grants it independence as Bangledesh.

	01-06-2002 05:57									#72
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quote: Actually, Pakistan is an example of one of those corrupt dictatorships the US has been accused of propping up over the years.

Dictatorship, yes... Corrupt, no. The dictatorship actually rose up because of the corrupt nature of the democratic government. Anything compared to that comes off as much less corrupt.

	01-06-2002 05:58									#73
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Those two countries are perfect examples of those whose toys should be taken away from them. Say what you will about the Cold War belligerants, but I don't think they ever came as close to nuking each other as India and Pakistan are right now, not even in '62. Only savin grace is that even if the nukes do start flying, they almost certainly won't suck any other nuclear powers into it (not even China), and their nuclear stockpiles are small enough not to kill off a significant portion of life on Earth.

	01-06-2002 06:52									#74
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I think the Indians are only pissed that the militants attacked the parliment building cause attacks in Kasmir have been going on for years and you haven't heard them complain too much. Why India would want a province that doesn't obviously want to be apart of it is beyond me. Just because the Marajah was Hindu and wanted to be in India is their sole reason for their claim.


Let the people of that region decide where it wants to go. But apparently India is willing to potenially sacrifice tens of millions of its population in the short term for a province that obviously never wanted to be apart of India.



Does anyone know if the people of Kashmir prefer Independence or to be apart of Pakistan. Cause Pakistan may not like it if Kashmir opts for the independent route. I don't know about that though.

	01-06-2002 06:52									#75
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@kolpo
the circumstances are a quite diffrent

Dispite that I think its a bit odd, to start a war with probably thousands or maybe millions causalities over an incident with what? 30 dead ppl.?

	01-06-2002 07:04									#76
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Spray, I believe independance, though going with Pakistan is not far behind.

	01-06-2002 07:11									#77
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The conflict over Kashmir goes back to the negotiations over independence in 1947. The Indian Congress party wanted to keep India intact, but the Muslim party was very insistent on a seperate "Land of the Pure" for the muslims. The British, though caught in the middle leaned towards the aims of the Congress party, if only because Gandhi and Nehru were much more easy to get along with. Driven by popuar sentiment in Britain and India the British Commission were also driven to come up with an independence plan ASAP. They were forced to knuckle in to the Muslims and established a commission to draw up the borders between the countries. In most areas they used census reports to draw a very rough line between areas that were predominantly muslim and those which were predominantly Hindu or Sikh. Kashmir was different though. Kashmir was one of those provinces still technically ruled by an independent prince. The Brtish let the prince decide wgether Kashmir would go with India or Pakistan, but it's fairly clear they did so largely because they knew he would side with India.

Kashmir is one of the most pleasent places to live on the sub-continent. Because of its higher elevation and its proximity to the mountains it is cooler than the rest of India, but it is not as cold in the winter as Nepal or Tibet. It is less rugged than those areas too. It is rich in agriculture, especially wheat, and a tourist haven as well. Both the Indus and the Ganges rivers have major sources in Kashmir. During the days of the British Raj the summer capital of India was in Kashmir. Undoubtedly Lord Mountbatten had hopes that it would continue to be the summer residence of the figurehead Governor-General of India after independence. He got his wish, but at the price of unending resentment from the Pakistanis.

	01-06-2002 07:16									#78
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Dr. Strangelove, very good post... and might I add, fitting, that with your screen name that you post here .

	01-06-2002 07:18									#79
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Knock it off, you're scaring me.

Anyway, Im worried about al-qaeda maybe setting up an attack on india to get em good and riled up :shudder:

	01-06-2002 07:32									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Dr. Strangelove, very good post... and might I add, fitting, that with your screen name that you post here .

All Right, D**n It!!!! I've had enough of the lot of you associating my good name with this sorry a*s little affair on the subcontinent. Why do you associate me with mass atomic death? Please, go watch the movie or read the book, and you'll find that the good doctor had absolutely nothing to do with the Russian doomsday bomb. Quite the contrary, it was the teutonic advisor himself who came up with a plan to save humanity when everyone else were either panicking or covering their own bohunkasses. Who else but the wheelchair bound genius would have had the presence of mind to set the proper male-female ratio to jump start the resurrection of humanity? Love is in the details I tell you! And so generous as to volunteer even his own seed to the project. I'm a saint I tell you! A saint! Stop dragging my name through the mud!

	01-06-2002 07:37									#81
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MEIN....FUHRER!!!!

	01-06-2002 07:43									#82
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LOOK.... I CAN WALK!!!

	01-06-2002 07:46									#83
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God, I love that movie.

"But sir...he'll see the big board!"

	01-06-2002 08:10									#84
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lol, i sooo need to get the DVD of that flick, thanks for reminding me my dear chums.

	01-06-2002 08:35									#85
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Dr. Strangelove, regardless of Mountbatten's intentions, when the maharajah did not immediately decide to go to Pakistan, but instead indicated he was going to opt for independence (a goal that they still want even 'til today), Pakistan Pashtoon led by Pakistan army officers invaded. This is August. The maharaja asked for Indian military assistance. This was denied unless the prince declared for India. This he did in October only when his capital was under extreme pressure and was about to be overrun.

It is clear that Pakistan would not accept the decision of the maharaja to be independent - probably because of the majority Moslem population.

India's official position today is, I believe, that they will allow a plebiscite only when the Pakistani occupation ends.

The UN solution seems to be the best one - a UN supervised plebiscite to decide - just like in E. Timor. The options should be several. Join Pakistan. Join India. Become independent. Divide along the line of control and do any of the above.

But note, that even when there was a plebiscite in E. Timor, the moslems went on a terror campaign to both influence the vote and overturn the result when they lost. The situation in Palestine is very similar - the moslems refused to accept partition. Their actions in Kashmir are consistent with the pattern.

This leads me to believe that an international force would have to be in place before the plebiscite to guarantee a fair vote and to secure the result.

	01-06-2002 08:46									#86
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Update All non-diplomatic Americans ordered to leave asap. Pakistan has ordered blackouts over 3 cities. Fearing air strikes are coming.

DoS believe total war could breakout in a matter of hours

	01-06-2002 08:51									#87
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Update All non-diplomatic Americans ordered to leave asap. Pakistan has ordered blackouts over 3 cities. Fearing air strikes are coming. DoS believe total war could breakout in a matter of hours

I had thought the Indians would at least wait until Rumsfeld arrived. If they go to war now, then they obviously know what Rumsfeld was going to ask of Pakistan and found the American position more of the same, unacceptable.

	01-06-2002 08:58									#88
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Well Im not saying that war is inevitable. But Pakistan Intellegence indicated possible airstrikes on supspected Khasmiri seperatist camps sometime within the next 48 hours.

We shall see

	01-06-2002 09:01									#89
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Indian intelligence is claiming Al-queda is massing in Kashmir for an attack on Indian territory, and such an attack would lead to a full-scale response by India. They believe Pakistan would likely retaliate with nuclear weapons, as they lack competitive conventional forces.

Jesus f*cking Christ, this could very well be the closest the world is going to come to a nuclear war, if not a nuke war itself. High holy hell...

	01-06-2002 09:01									#90
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I hope nobody in India thinks they can launch a few airstrikes or a couple of army incursions and then just walk away. The idea of a "limited war" or "managed conflict" is ludicrous.