02-06-2002 11:09									#121
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Surely they can, but much less likely with the US because it is such a democracy.

	02-06-2002 12:26									#122
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UR:

Yep. The drawbacks to democracy: transparency in government.

Gatekeeper

	02-06-2002 22:59									#123
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The UN doesn't say much about events 100 years before it's time.

However, China occuppied E. Turkestan in 1949. That is not 100 years ago.

I raise this issue to show there is no one uniform way of treating these "events" by the UN. China occupies E. Turkestan and Tibet. We don't get a peep out of the UN. Pakistan occupies a third of Jammu and Kashmir. It's occupation is treated as "liberation." Israel occupies territories captured during the Six Day War. It's occupation is far less brutal than China's, but Israel alone is on the UN sh*t list.

We also have older occupations that should be dealt with as well - the Turk, Iraqi, Iranian occupation of Kurdistan.

	02-06-2002 23:05									#124
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And, might I add, there is a problem in Spain with the Basques.

	02-06-2002 23:14									#125
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Justed watch the BBC news, and they had people in Karachi and Bombay saying that they would love to sacrifice their lives for their respective countries. I hate irrational people...

	02-06-2002 23:26									#126
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quote: However, China occuppied E. Turkestan in 1949. That is not 100 years ago

How much do you know of history? Because it seems you really don't know too much. 1949... can you think of what happened then? Oh yeah, Mao took over mainland China. And Chang Kai-Shek went where, oh yeah, Taiwan. And which one was recognized as the 'true' China? Good.

It would be hard for the UN to condemn a state it doesn't even acknowledge exists (due to US pressure).

quote: Pakistan occupies a third of Jammu and Kashmir. It's occupation is treated as "liberation."

Seeing as most of the population would rather be with Pakistan than India (though they would much rather be independant), I think you can call them liberators.

quote: We also have older occupations that should be dealt with as well - the Turk, Iraqi, Iranian occupation of Kurdistan.

You know, since you use this argument so much in the ME debates, I'm going to use it against you: There WAS no state of Kurdistan .

	03-06-2002 01:31									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Ned However, China occuppied E. Turkestan in 1949. That is not 100 years ago.

Re-occupied. Turkestan was part of the the Chinese Empire up to the 1919 revolution, when China fractured into feuding warlord statelets. Both Tibet and Turkestan were formed out of this mess. My understanding is that they were still considered to be part of China, even though China didn't have a national government. It was only after the Communists took power that the West decided that they were "independent."

	03-06-2002 01:33									#128
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China is within its rights to reclaim all it's former territories.

*eagerly awaits the invasion and subjugation of Vietnam and Korea.*

	03-06-2002 01:34									#129
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China recognized their leaving Chinese suzereignty.

	03-06-2002 01:37									#130
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China did. I didn't. It's all about me, you see?

*Starved for attention*

	03-06-2002 01:44									#131
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If you're starved for attention, why have you been hiding these past few months?

	03-06-2002 01:47									#132
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Why do you think I'm now attention starved?

Besides, I haven't been hiding. Just....removing myself from view.
And it's hard to post when you're lying on your bed, drunk, in a Montreal hotel room.

	03-06-2002 02:23									#133
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Re-occupied. Turkestan was part of the the Chinese Empire up to the 1919 revolution, when China fractured into feuding warlord statelets. Both Tibet and Turkestan were formed out of this mess. My understanding is that they were still considered to be part of China, even though China didn't have a national government. It was only after the Communists took power that the West decided that they were "independent."

Che, Are you suggesting we look the other way at times? Or are you suggesting that the people of E. Turkestan have no rights.

	03-06-2002 03:19									#134
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Unless you say that the South (as in US) should have gone free in 1860, you don't have a leg to stand on in critiquing China taking back E. Turkestan.

	03-06-2002 03:38									#135
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As an America, I am entitled to have a double standard, right?

Last edited by Ned on 03-06-2002 at 03:54

	03-06-2002 05:05									#136
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Let's put it this way. The Great Wall of China extends out into Turkestan. It's been part of China since time began. Periodically, when China goes into one of those upheavals, the central government forgets about it and it gets occupied by nomads. Then the government re-establishes control. So it has been for 4,000 years.

Pick the battles you can win. China will be here and in control of East Turkestan when the United States is a forgotten legend like Camelot.

	03-06-2002 05:18									#137
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Let's put it this way. The Great Wall of China extends out into Turkestan. It's been part of China since time began. Periodically, when China goes into one of those upheavals, the central government forgets about it and it gets occupied by nomads. Then the government re-establishes control. So it has been for 4,000 years. Pick the battles you can win. China will be here and in control of East Turkestan when the United States is a forgotten legend like Camelot.

As a man of the people che you should be sensitive to the aspirations of all people. Unless of course you are just faithfully towing the party line.

	03-06-2002 07:16									#138
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Good one, Spray.