31-05-2002 20:30									#1
	Pakistan threatens to use nukes Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

United Nations, May 30 (PTI) Pakistan has threatened to use nuclear weapons even if India stuck to conventional arms in any conflict, asserting that it has never subscribed to "no-first-use" of atomic weapons and that ruling out their use would give New Delhi a "license to kill."

"India should not have the license to kill with conventional weapons while Pakistan's hands are tied regarding other means to defend itself," said its new ambassador to the United Nations Munir Akram.

The highly bellicose and provocative statements by Akram on the second day on the job yesterday surprised diplomats and officials at the United Nations who declined to make an immediate comment.

Pakistan, he said, has to rely on the "means it possessed to deter Indian aggression" and would not "neutralise" that deterrence by any doctrine of "no-first-use."

To a question at his first news conference after taking over the job, Akram said any action by India across the border, any aerial attack on Pakistani territory and its assets, and any action to economically strangle it would be "viewed" as aggression and would be "responded to by Pakistan."

Noting that both India and Pakistan possessed nuclear weapons, he said while that should instill restraint on both sides, "it does not seem to do so on the Indian side."

The launching of a sharp attack less than 48 hours after taking over, some diplomats believe, could mean that Pakistan plans to use the United Nations for anti-Indian propaganda.

Akram, who had been his country's ambassador to the UN at Geneva, is known for his rhetoric against India and in previous years had also made highly provocative statements on Kashmir during debates whether the occasion demanded or not.

Pakistan, Akram claimed, believed in "no-first-use of force." That was the reason, he said, that Islamabad had offered non-aggression pact to New Delhi but India had rejected it.

"If India reserved the right to use conventional weapons, how could Pakistan - a weaker power-be expected to rule out all means of deterrence."

The United Nations Charter, the Pakistani ambassador said, prohibited the use of force and India should be committed to "non-use-of-force".

Akarm said the Security Council should address the issues of tensions between India and Pakistan which "constituted a threat to international peace and security."

"Whenever there is a threat of use of force against a member state and a threat to international peace and security, there is an obligation for the Council to address that situation," he told the news conference.

	31-05-2002 20:36									#2
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India has roughly twice the troops, aircraft, tanks etc. on the border.
Pakistan decided to even the odds with about 10 nuclear missles being readied.
All in all, a rather delicate situation.

	31-05-2002 20:40									#3
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Pakistan's bombs are all assumed to by A-bombs, about the size the destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. India's bombs are supposed to be ten times more powerful.

	31-05-2002 20:42									#4
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So much for the idea of nuclear weapons being a deterrent. When tempers flair people use what ever weapon is handy in order to respond. There is no reason to believe that Pakistan will allow itself to be overrun while they sit on their nukes. A border dispute is one thing but if full scale war breaks out then all bets are off.

	31-05-2002 20:49									#5
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Pakistan doesn't have the capacity to destroy India, though the reverse may be true. India could probably destroy Pakistan. In otherwords, Pakistan doesn't have a deterent capability short of a first use policy. India may decide it can take everything Pakistan's got, and then retaliate.

US Intel is estimating as many as 12 million dead. More wounded. It would overwhelm South and Central Asia's capacity to treat the survivors.

	31-05-2002 20:49									#6
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We shall see, Lincoln. Pakistan could still inflict serious damage to India- hopefully their nukes will deter an Indian attack.

	31-05-2002 21:00									#7
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Scary - statements like these also raise the likelihood of some kind of pre-emptive strike (by nuclear or conventional means) on Pakistan's missiles in the name of self-defense.

	31-05-2002 21:09									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi We shall see, Lincoln. Pakistan could still inflict serious damage to India- hopefully their nukes will deter an Indian attack.

Hopefully ? Scaring ...

The "good" strategy for Pakistan is to use their nukes as dissuading argument.

They have no enough power to have a more aggressive strategy.

It's only intimidation.

	31-05-2002 21:12									#9
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye Scary - statements like these also raise the likelihood of some kind of pre-emptive strike (by nuclear or conventional means) on Pakistan's missiles in the name of self-defense.

There was a story going around a few days ago that this had already happened, and Pakistan's nukes were in the custody of US Special Forces. Seems pretty unlikely to me though.

	31-05-2002 21:13									#10
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Well, yes... it is intimidation. Maybe get India to back down and take some troops off the border. Saying that you might have more troops and weapons on the border, but we do have nukes.

Or, they might wish to say OUR WORDS ARE BACKED BY NUCLEAR WEAPONS .

	31-05-2002 21:15									#11
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I don't think that either country wants to use nukes in any case because of the response they will provoke. The real fear is in the fanatics who would like nothing more than to cause a war that would then spiral out of control.

	31-05-2002 21:19									#12
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"So much for the idea of nuclear weapons being a deterrent."

The jury is still out, but I agree that this could disprove the uniform applicability of WOMD deterrence.

	31-05-2002 21:21									#13
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Analysts believe that if the war is contained to Jammu and Kashmir, there is little threat of nuclear war. If India goes after Lahore, however, Pakistan is expected to use its nukes.

	31-05-2002 21:26									#14
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And this, ladies and gents is why the Cold War was a good thing .

The USSR might have sucked ass, but at least there was little chance of a full blown war where nukes might (would) be used.

	31-05-2002 21:30									#15
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Im have you got relatives over there?

	31-05-2002 21:39									#16
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Yes... almost everyone on my mom's side, in fact.

	31-05-2002 22:01									#17
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Do you side in mind with the state of Pakistan?

(sorry for reducing you on this matter, normally I wouldn't do that, I just need someone to direct my quesitons to )

	31-05-2002 22:04									#18
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Do I side with Pakistan... yeah, on this. India was a bunch of dirty commies in the Cold War .

	31-05-2002 22:08									#19
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das ist crazy.

they should sit around a table and work things out about Kazmir... like we're doing with Turkey about our disputes


but paiktis you've been at the brink of war 3 times since 1970


SHUT UP!

	31-05-2002 22:52									#20
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Du bist selber crazy. Mehr als das, völlig deraaanged.

BTW paiktis, India and Pakistan are not argueing over some Kazimir guy

And then, the table is impossible for 2 states that are spiritually-run. A muslim one an one whose governing party is in power because it is an emphasising Hindu party and the majority of the Indian population is Hindu. I get the feeling that democracy is a farce.

Do they actually have an agenda apart from being Hindu? This is a serious question, I'm utterly underinformed about Indian politics. So are all parties there emphasisedly Hindu or only that one? If only that one, isn't that a farce? I know it is. Just confirm it.

	31-05-2002 22:54									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Du bist selber crazy. Mehr als das, völlig deraaanged. BTW paiktis, India and Pakistan are not argueing over some Kazimir guy

really? i thought they did. you know the guy with the funny dress?
oh well i age in perpetual learning.

	31-05-2002 22:55									#22
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At first I read the thread title as "Paiktis threatens to use nukes." But then I realized your Turkish masters would never allow you to.

	31-05-2002 22:56									#23
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Ecthelion, just that one, the Hindu Nationalist Party. The other main party, which has ruled India since its independence was the Congress Party. It was so mired in corruption, however, that India turned to the nationalists. There are many local parties and the left does about as well as in Europe.

	31-05-2002 22:57									#24
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I don't think we would ask for their permission


But say I alwys thought that the dresden bombing was redudnant.

i mean one well placed nuke and it would be all over.


oh well, next time, when you start WW3

	31-05-2002 22:58									#25
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This will no doubt show my ignorance of such matters, but what exactly is so fantastic about Kashmir that it warrants having a war being fought over it?

	31-05-2002 22:59									#26
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the radiation from nukes used in pakistan would be blown by the wind right into india, probably causing as many deaths there as in pakistan, since india has a more dense population

	31-05-2002 22:59									#27
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The estimated casualties from nuking in that area is 5 - 12 million...

anyone played chicken before?

you know some times neither of the 2 turns...

	31-05-2002 23:00									#28
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Ecthelion, just that one, the Hindu Nationalist Party. The other main party, which has ruled India since its independence was the Congress Party. It was so mired in corruption, however, that India turned to the nationalists. There are many local parties and the left does about as well as in Europe.

But that makes their whole democracy totally silly! That way it's always the most populist of all forces that wins the elections. I mean as long as people don't have education (and half of their population doesn't, probably even more), elections will always result in a victory for a force that deliberately represents as many people as possible. OK, it's not different here, but there it's obviously based on culture and naitonality only. And that they call a democracy? Those hinduists could easily make a coup and end democracy and noone in that country would complain!

And then, Kashmir. A muslim majority. And India is set on stubborn.

I used to be pro-India, but that is fading. Can't really say I'm pro-Pakistan either, it's just another conflict between racist bigots. Like Israel-Palestine.

	31-05-2002 23:08									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Paul Hanson This will no doubt show my ignorance of such matters, but what exactly is so fantastic about Kashmir that it warrants having a war being fought over it?

Mineral wealth.

	31-05-2002 23:14									#30
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But no, chegitz... it's all about the muslim population majority that India won't set free due to pure power greed.