01-06-2002 09:03									#91
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India says it anticipates Pakistan's using nukes and is prepared to respond.

Are all these @ssholes really this f*cking insane?!!!

	01-06-2002 09:07									#92
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Ned: You may be interested to read this. I won't vouch for the site cause I simply don't know what organization it represents. But it makes some good points against India. When it comes down to it, don't you think India should see what the people of Kashmir want before it goes about with a war that may kill hundreds of millions of people and diminish the lives of all those living on the sub continent and most likely everyone near the region. India is supposed to be a democracy after all.
The muslim terrorist are wrong for their methods, but I think India isn't acting much better.

http://www.ummah.org.uk/kashmir/falsecl.htm


the main site is here

http://www.ummah.org.uk/kashmir/

	01-06-2002 09:24									#93
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keep this thread hot! the next 2 days are critical.

	01-06-2002 09:34									#94
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Sprayber, the cite is interesting in that it quoted Mountbatten as the original autor of the concept that the final question of accession had to be settled by plebiscite.

Everyone is on the same page, I believe. Pakistan and India should agree on an UN-supervised plebiscite. However, how do we get from here to there without a war?

	01-06-2002 09:53									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Everyone is on the same page, I believe. Pakistan and India should agree on an UN-supervised plebiscite. However, how do we get from here to there without a war?

If I could answer that I would be known as Sprayber the wise, children would sing songs about me, maidens would dedicate their virtue to my name and I would have several high schools named after me.

	01-06-2002 10:53									#96
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No big deal. The US has never ruled out the possibility to use nuclear weapons in any wars either.

	01-06-2002 11:24									#97
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This is horrible, just imagine all the poor people in cities like New Delhi and Karachi that will die. This could be the worst catastrophe in human history.

	01-06-2002 11:41									#98
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That's doubtful...

	01-06-2002 12:35									#99
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Would Pakistan accept an indepenend Kasmir with a completely democratic and secular government that does everything possible to fight all those who use terrorism?

But if you say that India is bad because it doesn't let Kamsir go must you also condemt China for not allowing to let Tibet go. I think that the majority of Tibet would prefere both Independance and joining India above being a part of China.

	01-06-2002 12:35									#100
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Maybe this is just wishful thinking, but I find it inconceivable that anyone would actually use nuclear weapons, expecially when the other side has them too.

	01-06-2002 12:43									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Maybe this is just wishful thinking, but I find it inconceivable that anyone would actually use nuclear weapons, expecially when the other side has them too.

Yes it is basically saying: We don't mind if our people die as long as those of the enemy also die. The damage of a nuclear war would be much more then what Kasmir is worth. For Paksitan is starting a nuclear war suicide, for India is it suicide of it's northern provinces, every leader who could even consider that is an inhuman beast and should be taken of power.

I think whole Jasmir(Pakistan part+Indian part+Chinees part) can best become an indepenent secular state that is completely neutral(they a

	01-06-2002 12:46									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Maybe this is just wishful thinking, but I find it inconceivable that anyone would actually use nuclear weapons, expecially when the other side has them too.

Yes the damage caused by a nuclear war would be much biggger then what Kasmir is worth.For Pakistan is it suicide for India is it suicide of it's Northern cities. Any leader who would even consider that is an inhumane beast and should be taken of power.

Just organize a poll in India and Pakistand: Are you willing to be anilated by nukes in order to gain kasmir? I'm sure the majority would say no.

	01-06-2002 12:55									#103
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http://www.msnbc.com/news/760272.asp?pne=msn

Not fun

	01-06-2002 13:02									#104
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Everyone:

**shrug** For what it's worth, all the news wires remain quiet.

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	01-06-2002 14:32									#105
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quote: Originally posted by kolpo Would Pakistan accept an indepenend Kasmir with a completely democratic and secular government that does everything possible to fight all those who use terrorism?

Would the Kashmiri citizens accept an independent Kashmir with a completely democratic and secular government that does everything possible to fight all those who use terrorism?

	01-06-2002 14:36									#106
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From that MSBNC report :

quote: three dozen warplanes in the area, roughly triple the Pakistani number.

Are they out of their mind? Going to war with 36 and 12 planes?

	01-06-2002 14:56									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Are they out of their mind?

	02-06-2002 00:04									#108
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quote: Originally posted by kolpo But if you say that India is bad because it doesn't let Kamsir go must you also condemt China for not allowing to let Tibet go. I think that the majority of Tibet would prefere both Independance and joining India above being a part of China.

Agreed. I wonder what the UN position is on a free Tibet?

China also re-conquered Turkestan in the 1949 and renamed it Xinjiang province. There they are experiencing moslem terrorist acts similar to those we see elsewhere in the world. This is why China supports the war on terror.

But Chinese occupation of Tibet and Turkestan province also raises the larger issue of when a culturally independent people have a right of self-determination. The people of Turkestan are Uyghurs, better known as Huns.

Here is a link to a Turkestan site. http://www.afn.org/~afn20372/pol/fet.html

Since taking Turkestan, China has moved large numbers of native Han Chinese into the occupied territories to make the acquisition permanent. Here is an Amnesty International report that details the extreme brutality of the occupation. I wonder if this is "legal?" What is the UN position? What is S. Kroeze's position for that matter?

http://www.web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/index/ASA170181999

	02-06-2002 00:42									#109
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36 and 12 planes? Im certain pakistan has about 70-100 F-16's capable of dropping a nuclear weapon on India cities. India has the same amount of MiG-29's capable of much the same..


Think of the conflict as this, as Netanyahu put it. Its a game of chicken in Vehicles...right now the vehicles are getting closer and neither one appears to wanna wheel out of it.

	02-06-2002 00:57									#110
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory 36 and 12 planes? Im certain pakistan has about 70-100 F-16's capable of dropping a nuclear weapon on India cities. India has the same amount of MiG-29's capable of much the same..

But not in Kashmir, as the report says.

	02-06-2002 01:03									#111
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I didn't hear this yet, as I am enjoyin wonderful British weather (before the nuclear winter ) however I am convinced that humans are far too stupid not to use nuclear weapons again and the fact that USA and Russia ended teh cold war without using nukes is a miracle and whatever you say of those regimes, that requires respect from both countries.

However as more countries and power hungry "crazy" leaders have nukes the thing is inevitable i'd say.

I just hope that I wont be there directly when it happens even though a serious conflict will affect the whole world.

Anyway... my current TFC nick is Gettin' ready for WWIII

	02-06-2002 01:48									#112
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actually, FG, Paikistan has fewer than 50 F-16s. and they're going to use missiles anyway. who uses nuclear bombers?

	02-06-2002 02:10									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Eli But not in Kashmir, as the report says.

Why would you put the planes in Kashmir? They're just likely to get blown up by artillery fire. It's not that big a province, so you keep them back from the front lines...

	02-06-2002 07:50									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Dr. Strangelove, regardless of Mountbatten's intentions, when the maharajah did not immediately decide to go to Pakistan, but instead indicated he was going to opt for independence (a goal that they still want even 'til today), Pakistan Pashtoon led by Pakistan army officers invaded. This is August. The maharaja asked for Indian military assistance. This was denied unless the prince declared for India. This he did in October only when his capital was under extreme pressure and was about to be overrun. It is clear that Pakistan would not accept the decision of the maharaja to be independent - probably because of the majority Moslem population.

The Pakistanis still maintain that this was a local uprising by unaffiliated freedom fighters not willing to have their fate decided by a hereditary leader. In the past they've even suggested that the affair was staged.

	02-06-2002 10:08									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Agreed. I wonder what the UN position is on a free Tibet?

When was Tibet an indepedent country last?

quote: Originally posted by Ned China also re-conquered Turkestan in the 1949 and renamed it Xinjiang province.

It had been called Xinjiang for several hundred years before that, if that means anything.

quote: Originally posted by Ned But Chinese occupation of Tibet and Turkestan province also raises the larger issue of when a culturally independent people have a right of self-determination.

Does the same issue apply to the United States, which is really a patch work of groups that are culturally independent?

quote: Originally posted by Ned Here is an Amnesty International report that details the extreme brutality of the occupation. I wonder if this is "legal?" What is the UN position? What is S. Kroeze's position for that matter? http://www.web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/index/ASA170181999

Read the report. Rather unprofessionally done. Treated certain information sources as gospel and others were dismissed out of hand.

	02-06-2002 10:21									#116
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Urban Ranger, If you know, what does the UN say about the Chinese occupation of E. Turkestan?

	02-06-2002 10:27									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Urban Ranger, If you know, what does the UN say about the Chinese occupation of E. Turkestan?

Nothing.

	02-06-2002 10:53									#118
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What exactly does "occupation" mean? Is the US Native American land illegally occupied by white men?

	02-06-2002 10:57									#119
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The UN doesn't say much about events 100 years before it's time.

	02-06-2002 11:04									#120
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UR:

Goodness! An Amnesty International report that is "unprofessional" and treats sources unequally?! I didn't think that was possible with AI; I've always thought their reports that criticize the United States were gospel! But if they can goof up in regards to China and Tibet, then they can goof up elsewhere, too!

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