25-06-2002 16:55									#241
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I think the pack did look a weakness for you in the autumn tests against England and France. I think progress has already been made though based on Saturday. Eddie was a front row man himself right?

Eddie was a hooker. Cunning little hooker.

quote: That’s a very reasonable point, but then all refs get it wrong in certain areas don’t you think – we can’t have a video ref for every blow up - unless we all adopt the SH theory of blowing the whistle only after a try?

I wouldn't cite it as the best argument for letting the extremely marginal things go. The real point is that the extremely marginal transgressions have absolutely no impact on the game. The Australia A - France A game was interesting tonight because the ref was a local - George Ayoub. You'd love him. He's more technical than any NH ref! The silly thing was that he was penalising crooked throws when the lineouts were climbing all over each other before the hookers threw the ball. I'm sending him the airfare to Leicestershire!

quote: Seriously though it was quite funny to see written down the idea Mr White was slightly ‘bad’ because he got marginal decisions RIGHT?

Don't be deliberately obtuse, Havak, it doesn't become you.

quote: Here is a thought for you – most of his worst examples have been at home. Takes a brave ref to card a Bok at home don’t you think? It will be interesting to see him at Twickers (and with an Aussie ref?)

Yes, a lot of them have been at home, but always in either S12 or Tri-Nations with non-SA refs. I think most refs have been guilty of letting him get away with it. It's a pity, really, because "tackling" aside, he's a very fine player.

	25-06-2002 17:25									#242
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Cunning little hooker becomes a cunning little coach. There's a nice synergy there.

quote: Early on, their discipine was terrible, giving away silly penalties

If consitency is a problem for the French then discipline is the real achilles heal for them. Once they lose their discipline the game can rapidly descend into total farce.

It seems the Wallabies are playing for a clean sweep Saturday then. It would take a brave man to bet against them now - where is Caligastia I wonder?

quote: have absolutely no impact on the game

I think this remains open for debate to be honest. By blowing for marginal offside White was making sure both sides were conscious of their field position at all times - and it has to have encouraged players to remain on side. Refs in general do seem much keener on offside than ever before - and this must have been led by the fact certain teams (and I make no partisan point here) have been abusing it.

Then again I may be crediting the IRB with way too much logic?

quote: Don't be deliberately obtuse, Havak, it doesn't become you.

quote: "tackling" aside, he's a very fine player.

Something else for me to watch out for in the tri-nations.

There was somehting I forgot to tell Caligastia about last weekend - although it was highlights only I caught I have to say that Chris Jack is indeed the real deal for a lock. The best in an AB shirt for some time even?

	25-06-2002 18:42									#243
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quote: Originally posted by Havak It seems the Wallabies are playing for a clean sweep Saturday then. It would take a brave man to bet against them now - where is Caligastia I wonder?

I would bet against them. Not that I think they will lose, but if I was putting money down I would make more if I bet on the french and they won.

I do think the French will do better this time, but the Wallabies will likely improve also. It should definitely be interesting.

quote: There was somehting I forgot to tell Caligastia about last weekend - although it was highlights only I caught I have to say that Chris Jack is indeed the real deal for a lock. The best in an AB shirt for some time even?

As far as forwards go, yes.

	26-06-2002 03:36									#244
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Gee, Havak has been quiet about the U21 World Cup, hasn't he?

Latest result to reach my ears:

Ireland -d- England!

	26-06-2002 05:50									#245
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Cunning little hooker becomes a cunning little coach. There's a nice synergy there.

Not that I'm elevating Eddie, but it's interesting that the best coaches seem to have been only average players themselves. I can't think of any great players going on to become great coaches. Can you?

quote: If consitency is a problem for the French then discipline is the real achilles heal for them. Once they lose their discipline the game can rapidly descend into total farce.

The hype here before the French arrived was that the coach had eliminated the discipline problems - which is to say, you couldn't count on at least 15 free points from penalties. Without pre-empting Saturday night, I think LDiCesare was pretty right when he said they're at the end of a very long, very tiring season. But then, I suppose, every team faces that touring problem. We will in November.

quote: I think this remains open for debate to be honest. By blowing for marginal offside White was making sure both sides were conscious of their field position at all times - and it has to have encouraged players to remain on side. Refs in general do seem much keener on offside than ever before - and this must have been led by the fact certain teams (and I make no partisan point here) have been abusing it.

Look, the only flaw in my argument - to my mind - is exactly where you draw the line. When does marginal cease to be marginal? I honestly don't think penalising for inches offside encourages players to stay onside. The evidence is to the contrary. It's like hands in the ruck - it's always penalised, but it keeps happening. My bottom line is that an offence that interferes with play should be penalised.

quote: Then again I may be crediting the IRB with way too much logic?

Well, quite.

quote: Something else for me to watch out for in the tri-nations.

Butch is quick, strong, and has very good skills. He just lacks tackling technique.

	26-06-2002 13:05									#246
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quote: Havak has been quiet about the U21 World Cup, hasn't he?

The what?

Guys we (seriously) had quite a lot of U-21 players pulled away by the senior squads summer tour in point of fact. And U-21 is a funny beast – over half of the NZ squad will probably be Scottish players within five years after failing to get AB contracts? The real killer to U-21 though is that Wales are quite good at it – and it never converts to senior team quality.

quote: I can't think of any great players going on to become great coaches. Can you?

Internationally, no not really. You could argue Woodward I guess who was a Grand Slam winner and a Lion? He was before my time so I can’t make a personal endorsement of that – I’m told he was good by those that saw him. At club level you see the odd one – I have to put forward Dean Richards there. It is more than possible Dean will be a Lions or England coach down the line.

quote: the coach had eliminated the discipline problems

Credit where it is due – Laporte has greatly improved their discipline. But it is beyond the power of a mere mortal to eliminate that part of the French teams nature in just two short years I think.

quote: We will in November.

Quite. The same old problem of seasons not matching. It’s why you have to take direct comparison between NH and SH teams with a pinch of salt depending on when the games are played. Look at the next RWC – end of season for you, towards the start for us.

I have to say the SH leads the way in showing how players should be protected though – our top guys play way too much rugby still. Internationals are restricted to 34 first class games I think – but if you come on after 41 mins in a game it doesn’t count as a game against your quota – silly stuff.

quote: My bottom line is that an offence that interferes with play should be penalised.

Put in those terms it’s hard to disagree. The problem is offside did need tackling – it was being badly abused a few years ago. If refs are still being too vigilant I prefer that to overly loose – it’s a personal viewpoint. I guess I’m just sad that the guy I rate as currently our best English ref managed to come up short to your standards.

Who is the ref Saturday?

quote: He just lacks tackling technique.

You don’t think he does it deliberately then? I have heard that suggested strongly by some pundits.

	26-06-2002 16:34									#247
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Guys we (seriously) had quite a lot of U-21 players pulled away by the senior squads summer tour in point of fact.

*Violins are heard to strike up*

quote: I’m just sad that the guy I rate as currently our best English ref managed to come up short to your standards.

Sad but not surprised?

quote: Who is the ref Saturday?

New Zealander. Paul Whose-Name-Has-Escaped-Me-Briefly. Known to be a pedant. Can't escape the buggers!

quote: You don’t think he does it deliberately then? I have heard that suggested strongly by some pundits.

Oh yes, it's deliberate. I was being, um, whimsical. Sorry. It doesn't become me.

	26-06-2002 17:27									#248
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Not surprised at all in fact

Is the surname Honiss? I think I can agree with you totally if so (do we need to mark the rare occassions of that?)

It's amazing how often I miss it when you are being whimsical - I must try harder.

	26-06-2002 18:37									#249
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Is the surname Honiss? I think I can agree with you totally if so (do we need to mark the rare occassions of that?)

Just agree with me that penalising for an inch offside is a sure way to ruin a game. Yes, Honiss. That's him. Not terribly popular with anyone. In fact, there's a funny story about him. At least I think it was him, names weren't named, but the general description fitted him. He was miked up for the game and went to the dunny just before taking the field. Those who had access to the audio were bombarded with sounds of, um, I'll leave the rest to your imagination.

quote: It's amazing how often I miss it when you are being whimsical - I must try harder.

It's only most of the time.

	26-06-2002 19:41									#250
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Waow ! I've been away from the forum for five days and I have a whole book to read... I stayed away deliberately as I recorded Australia-France and intended to look at it Sunday evening.

First, I must say the Australians deserve their victory though they haven't played their best rugby.

On the opposite side, the performance of the french is rather disappointing but logical. LDiCesare has already pointed out appropriately the lacks of our players and I agree with him on every point and especially when he says they were tired (which can explain the unusual amount of handling errors and some stupid fouls).

As usual, what a pleasure to see G. Gregan (and Larkham of course) playing though Frédéric Michalack has been rather good (and he is playing for the Stade Toulousain as is Cedric Heymans in France A). Once again the great and powerful organization of the Australian team has yielded very good results.

About the french discipline, it is my greatest disappointment though George Betsen's (a usually very fair player) late tackle on Larkham was rather difficult to avoid as he was launched and already preparing its tackle when the ball was kicked.

About the referee, yes he was pretty good to the exception of the scrums. The french forwards have been blamed for crumbling the scrum too often. What is the interest to crumble a scrum when you are dominating and thus have a way to tire the opposite forwards and "glue" them to an advancing scrum. I think most of the fouls committed by our forwards can be traced back to a kind of anger provoked by misunderstood and sometimes unfair judgements (or at the very least perceived as unfair) from the referee.

About Mr White's tendancy to whistle too often, I don't agree with our SH friends. Though I don't agree the way he has judged the scrums, I think he has found a kind of balance between the SH leniency and the NH stricter enforcement of the rules.

Whatever the referee and his behaviour on the field, the best players have won.

I hope the story will be very different next saturday...

Havak : "Swing low, sweet chariot..."
I remember the letters on the back of the Leicester players (though I don't remember those of Bath) and I'am deeply regretting their disappearance as it was a very old tradition.
About Bath, I've heard several times the number thirteen was never used because of a player's death on the field (I might be wrong).

Last edited by Tamerlin on 26-06-2002 at 21:11

	26-06-2002 20:00									#251
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Nice story about Honiss. I hope it's not urban myth stuff (there's a similar story does the rounds here attributed mainly to female TV presenters)

You will not find him too popular here either - too many howlers to his name here too.

quote: It's only most of the time.

I will strive manfully to reduce it to some of the time then.

As for Tamerlin's point on penaliasing collapsing scrums referees have been very strict on it this season - it must be an IRB edict? I agree it doesn't make sense for the attacking forwards to collapse a scrum in many situations, but I think the argument goes that the side is looking for advantageous penalties - maybe even penalty tries? I'm sure the Wallabies took advantage of it when Mr White showed he was looking closely at the French scrum for this - they are the ultimate Professional team in this way for me.

To be honest I don't see how refs can tell which front row is at fault most of the time - I never knew what I'd done wrong when the ref blew up.

quote: About the tendancy to whistle too often, I don't agree

As NH refs go White is quite sparing on the whistle - there must be a massive gulf between NH and SH refs when the Aussies pinged him as whistle happy.

It should have been McHugh from Ireland - then we could have all had fun this week discussing his performance. The only thing he has going for him for me is he was the last ref to send a Wallaby off?

	26-06-2002 20:03									#252
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Despite the evil grin that was actually intended whimsically by the way Finbar.

	26-06-2002 21:20									#253
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Hi Havak,

You should read again the end of my previous post as I sent it too soon, the last part was missing...

	27-06-2002 05:02									#254
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Nice story about Honiss. I hope it's not urban myth stuff (there's a similar story does the rounds here attributed mainly to female TV presenters)

Regardless, I would rather they'd appointed SA's Jonathan Kaplan. He's a good ref who strikes a fair balance with his approach.

quote: I will strive manfully to reduce it to some of the time then.

Best of, um, British.

quote: As for Tamerlin's point on penaliasing collapsing scrums referees have been very strict on it this season - it must be an IRB edict? I agree it doesn't make sense for the attacking forwards to collapse a scrum in many situations, but I think the argument goes that the side is looking for advantageous penalties - maybe even penalty tries? I'm sure the Wallabies took advantage of it when Mr White showed he was looking closely at the French scrum for this - they are the ultimate Professional team in this way for me. To be honest I don't see how refs can tell which front row is at fault most of the time - I never knew what I'd done wrong when the ref blew up.

Scrum matters can tend towards the arcane, can't they? One of our commentators, Chris Handy - that's your best mate Buddha, Havak - is an ex-Test front rower and he's often mystified by some of the calls.

Certainly, the French A scrum the other night ran into trouble with the ref. They - and the loose head in particular - were deliberately driving "in and up" and "popping" the scrum. It was quite blatant. I don't know whether there were language problems between ref and players, but the French kept doing it and endless free kicks resulted.

On the communication side, it was rather fun hearing the Oz ref talking to the French. He started off in English flavoured with a sort of French accent. Later, he tried French, but it turned out to be Italian!

	27-06-2002 05:04									#255
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Despite the evil grin that was actually intended whimsically by the way Finbar.

Picked it - as they say - like a scab!

	27-06-2002 05:13									#256
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Well, the Wallabies are going to discover how strong their pack is on Saturday night with the French bringing back Ibanez, Brouzet and Crenca into the Tight 5. At the same time, the Wallabies have had to replace the hooker and #8. My eyes are already watering for our pack.

	27-06-2002 05:41									#257
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Oops! Sorry. Forgot to mention the U21 World Cup. Sponsored by Havak's Formula For Instant Memory Loss.

Australia thumped Wales 43-7 in one semi, SA toppled title-holders NZ in the other semi - 19-18 - with a very late penalty.

So it's Australia -v- SA in the final.

Of course, if Australia loses, I might just have to do a Havak.

	27-06-2002 12:49									#258
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quote: the last part was missing...

Pas de problem. I understood you were unhappy with his interpretation at the scrum but your views were still closer to mind than Finbars had been.

I am afraid the ref on Saturday is every bit as worrying as Finbar suggests from my experience of him helming Internationals up here – combining the very worst of SH interpretation (stand as afar offside as you like and enjoy <1 second to release at tackle ball) with the very worst of NH (pedantic technicalities at the ruck and set pieces). He may be a Kiwi but I have to feel he must have been educated here?

Finbar – I’ve not yet registered the qualities of Kaplan – again yet another name to watch out for (he is bound to get a tri series match?).

quote: that's your best mate Buddha, Havak

A nice bloke and quite entertaining with it – but he talks total nonsense a lot of the time. I’d love to see him co-commentate with ‘Wino’ Barnes – it might be 80 mins of rubbish but it would be a real belly laugh.

quote: but the French kept doing it

It is very, very easy for a pack that knows it’s opponents are under scrutiny for this to make it look like it keeps on happening. I am not suggesting any Australian team would use such tactics of course.

quote: it turned out to be Italian!

I bet that went down well?

Our old (or rather my old) friend McHugh frequently gets club games involving French sides as he speaks fluent French. Best be grateful he didn’t get picked for this tour then?

quote: Sponsored by Havak's Formula For Instant Memory Loss.

I was going to take it to market – but I forgot how to make it.

In light of the fact you haven’t made as much as you could have out of England’s fight for penultimate or last place I promise not to be too harsh when you lose to SA.

	27-06-2002 14:06									#259
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I am afraid the ref on Saturday is every bit as worrying as Finbar suggests from my experience of him helming Internationals up here – combining the very worst of SH interpretation (stand as afar offside as you like and enjoy <1 second to release at tackle ball) with the very worst of NH (pedantic technicalities at the ruck and set pieces). He may be a Kiwi but I have to feel he must have been educated here?

Never forget - there's a lot of Brit in NZ.

quote: Finbar – I’ve not yet registered the qualities of Kaplan – again yet another name to watch out for (he is bound to get a tri series match?).

He's considered one of their best. He'll get a Tri-Nations match.

quote: It is very, very easy for a pack that knows it’s opponents are under scrutiny for this to make it look like it keeps on happening. I am not suggesting any Australian team would use such tactics of course.

All too true. Except in this case ... every replay showed them doing it. Very silly.

quote: In light of the fact you haven’t made as much as you could have out of England’s fight for penultimate or last place I promise not to be too harsh when you lose to SA.

Oh! The battle with the Argies for 7th and 8th place? Well, it could have been worse. Not a lot. But worse.

	27-06-2002 14:44									#260
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quote: there's a lot of Brit in NZ.

And a lot of NZ in Brit - Scotland at least.

Well as Kaplan can only potentially helm two of the matches even I should manage to catch him, memory allowing.

quote: every replay showed them doing it. Very silly.

If so they deserve what they got all right - you have to play the ref. If he starts punishing something you move your infringments to something he is not pulling up? Cynical but true?

quote: Well, it could have been worse. Not a lot. But worse.

Keep in mind I am a long suffering England fan - emphasis firmly on the 'long' with a worthy mention for the suffering. Still got them violins?

Still it's this kind of thing that makes its sweeter when the senior team pulls off big wins - I am a "the glass is half full" kind of fan.

	27-06-2002 17:34									#261
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quote: Originally posted by Havak If so they deserve what they got all right - you have to play the ref. If he starts punishing something you move your infringments to something he is not pulling up? Cynical but true?

Just true.

quote: Keep in mind I am a long suffering England fan - emphasis firmly on the 'long' with a worthy mention for the suffering. Still got them violins?

Paganinni's warming up as I type!

quote: Still it's this kind of thing that makes its sweeter when the senior team pulls off big wins - I am a "the glass is half full" kind of fan.

And don't take your chair while you're at the bar!

To tell you the honest truth, this French team they've picked for Saturday night scares me just a bit. If our forwards aren't right on song - or singing a better song than usual - we could be in trouble.

	27-06-2002 17:41									#262
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Not that I'm elevating Eddie, but it's interesting that the best coaches seem to have been only average players themselves. I can't think of any great players going on to become great coaches. Can you?

Grizz Wiley?

	27-06-2002 17:44									#263
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Grizz Wiley?

Who?

	27-06-2002 17:51									#264
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Who?

He was an All Black a while back, and he coached Argentina. Dont know if he still is or not. Also John Kirwan is the italian coach, and Im sure youve heard of him

	27-06-2002 18:35									#265
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quote: Originally posted by finbar All too true. Except in this case ... every replay showed them doing it. Very silly.

Do you really think the french players are this stupid Finbar ?

Do you really think they are so dumb they refuse to use their best weapon against the Wallabies and even prefer to allow Matthew Burke scoring 3 points each penalty ?

More seriously Finbar, the Aussies have been the best but the French players have certainly not commited as many fouls as Mr White and you tend to believe it.

	27-06-2002 18:35									#266
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My question specified "great coaches". Plenty of great players have gone on to coach. With great respect to John Kirwan, he's hardly a great coach. Yet.

	27-06-2002 18:41									#267
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Do you really think the french players are this stupid Finbar ? Do you really think they are so dumb they refuse to use their best weapon against the Wallabies and even prefer to allow Matthew Burke scoring 3 points each penalty ?

Tamerlin, I was talking about the Australia A -v- France A match last Tuesday night, not the Test match last Saturday night. The French A scrum was penalised a number of times for driving in and up, "popping" the scrum. I watched the game.

	27-06-2002 18:45									#268
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And he faces a massive challenge to become one where he has gone I'm afraid.

quote: And don't take your chair while you're at the bar!

This is my only "remember this and we'll get on just fine" rule.

And now I think I need to leave you to the discussion about the front row infractions.

	27-06-2002 18:56									#269
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quote: Originally posted by finbar My question specified "great coaches". Plenty of great players have gone on to coach. With great respect to John Kirwan, he's hardly a great coach. Yet.

Does Grizz qualify as a "great" coach? He has done a lot for Argentina. He was also a great player in his day...

	27-06-2002 19:15									#270
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Great. Argentina.

I'm sure the lack of association will become evident given time.