20-06-2002 19:20									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin The question is : will the Aussies be too tough for these two young bloods ? I hope not.

The consensus here seems to be that our backs will be too big, strong and quick. That's assuming, of course, that the ball gets to them often enough.

	20-06-2002 19:56									#182
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quote: His family is oldish-money but he's a pretentious ****er, to boot.

quote: our backs will be too big, strong and quick. That's assuming, of course, that the ball gets to them often enough.

Caution is advised - we expected our forwards to dominate possession in Paris this year and our backs to be "too big, strong and quick" and it didn't quite work like that.

quote: Of course there are some abuse, but I like this.

I had forgotten about De Villiers, he has helped bring a more disciplined approach to the French forwards I think?

I would ask you to consider that removing this nation-hopping rule in Rugby would affect the All Blacks and Wallabies a lot more than it would France. It is of course pure coincidence that I support getting rid of it.

I don't mind qualifying through residency but I think the qualifying period needs to be 7 years plus (to stop Islanders signed to Kiwi clubs at 17 being in an All Black jersey by 20)

quote: will the Aussies be too tough for these two young bloods ?

If their media has taken the position Finbar suggests then you have every chance of smashing them I would say. Over-confidence is an occassional problem for the men in Green and Gold?

Finbar - I am still just funning okay, I'm looking forward to a great game whatever the result but - Vive La France!!!

	20-06-2002 20:41									#183
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quote: Originally posted by finbar In fact, because we have no South Africans posting in this thread, how about we blame them for everything that's wrong with rugby?

What a gret idea! They are to blame really anyway.

The South Africans are known for being cheats. Remember in 96 when the All Blacks won a test series in South Africa for the first time? Well it was also the first time they used a non-south african referee. Coincidence? I think NOT!

and dont even get me started on the 95 world cup final...

	20-06-2002 20:51									#184
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quote: Originally posted by finbar The ABs - let's just call them the Crusaders? - are going to have to improve, but they should still win comfortably. It will be interesting to see if their combinations improve.

Thats what I am hoping for. No doubt Mitchell will have given them a good bollocking after the last game, so hopefully that and more practice will give us a better performance from them this week.

I also would like to see the USA beat scotland. Unfortunately I wont get to see the match though, they arent showing it for some reason... You would think they would show it considering that its this country's national team. They showed The USA vs SA last year, and the scotland match is being played in San Francisco, so its not like they couldnt show it...

	20-06-2002 20:59									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Caligastia : no, it's not always your fault. The SH have given a new breath to the game of Rugby (in my own opinion of course), I'am only criticizing the changes brought by the new rules or the referees when they threaten to change the nature of the game and moreover when these changes are ordered by TV channels in order to make more money out of our favorite sport. I know there would be no professional high level Rugby without money but we should not go too far and create a new game.

I agree. Every rule change should have the interests of the game in mind, not just money. God forbid rugby ever gets as commercialized as american footbal.

	20-06-2002 21:07									#186
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Havak & Finbar-

Lets keep politics out of the discussion guys because I have been happy with the friendly atmosphere in our rugby threads so far and would hate that to change.

	20-06-2002 21:09									#187
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Thanks again for your support Havak, I promise to sing "Swing low" the next time I see the English team playing and winning.

Caligastia : the 95 world cup, do you mean the world cup which final should have been New Zealand - France with a decent referee in our rainy semi-final against South-Africa...
About money in sport, you could have added "or soccer" after "God forbid rugby ever gets as commercialized as american football."

	20-06-2002 21:17									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Caligastia : the 95 world cup, do you mean the world cup which final should have been New Zealand - France with a decent referee in our rainy semi-final against South-Africa...

Yes, I remember that game. It was a titanic struggle.

My problem with the RWC final is that they added so much extra time on the game when the score was still tied. They should have just made it full-time after the first period of extra time and the All Blacks would have won on points from previous games. New Zealand were the best team of the 95 RWC, and deserved to win. Especially when you consider that they managed to keep the score tied agasinst SA even when half the team had food poisoning.

quote: About money in sport, you could have added "or soccer" after "God forbid rugby ever gets as commercialized as american football."

Yeah, but soccer hasnt got as bad as american football. In american football they interrupt the game every few minutes to play commercials.

	20-06-2002 21:39									#189
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Tony Marsh is not australian, he is kiwi, isnt't he? And De Villiers was born in South Africa (although he is not playing).But then the Irish play with players whose great-grandmother was born on a boat in the Irish channel so it can count as being irish, and the AB count many players who could have played for the Samoa if I am not mistaken.
I also believe Ibanez being on the bench is hard on him, though Azam is a real fine player too. Of course Laporte has the World Cup in mind, but Brusque was quite good, so dropping him is a bit hard, particularly considering Laporte said his first choice as a full back was Toulouse player Poitrenaud, who somehow hurt himself out of the tour.
As for Keith Wood, he is probably the best hooker I ever saw. If you want to see some fighting spirit, don't go look any further.

	20-06-2002 21:53									#190
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quote: New Zealand were the best team of the 95 RWC, and deserved to win. Especially when you consider that they managed to keep the score tied agasinst SA even when half the team had food poisoning.

As Tamerlin pointed out rightly, France should have been finalist, and it would have won, too. Considering the half final referee refused a perfectly valid try by Galthie under the fallacious pretext the ball hadn't been hooked in the scrum (how did it get past the number 8 then?) and the fact that crumbling scrum after scrum on one's line ought to get a penalty try, I think we can agree the South Africans have a fair unfair reputation.

	20-06-2002 22:26									#191
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare As Tamerlin pointed out rightly, France should have been finalist, and it would have won, too.

If the All Blacks hadnt been food poisoned, then I doubt it.

	21-06-2002 04:43									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Havak & Finbar- Lets keep politics out of the discussion guys because I have been happy with the friendly atmosphere in our rugby threads so far and would hate that to change.

But we're agreeing with each other! And I honestly can't think of any more damning broadside to level against the Poms than Mrs T. But you're right. No more politics. Rugby's way more important than politics anyway. It's way more important than Stem Cell Research. It's way more important than ...

Hmmm. I wonder if there's anything more important than rugby?

	21-06-2002 04:51									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Havak If their media has taken the position Finbar suggests then you have every chance of smashing them I would say. Over-confidence is an occassional problem for the men in Green and Gold? Finbar - I am still just funning okay, I'm looking forward to a great game whatever the result but - Vive La France!!!

In fact, there's no over-confidence at all. The observation about the Wallaby backs was more a theory about the difference between the two sides. It's widely held here that the team were pretty ordinary last week. The great unknown is how the French will respond to the loss to the Pumas and the team reshuffle. Phil Kearns observed that the French are famous for reshuffling the team and coming out and playing a blinder. Those locals who think the Wallabies will win are also thinking it won't be by much.

	21-06-2002 04:59									#194
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare Tony Marsh is not australian, he is kiwi, isnt't he?

You're quite right, LDiCesare. Mental blowout on my part.

quote: And De Villiers was born in South Africa (although he is not playing).But then the Irish play with players whose great-grandmother was born on a boat in the Irish channel so it can count as being irish, and the AB count many players who could have played for the Samoa if I am not mistaken.

I've also wondered about the number of Pacific Islanders who make it into the AB side so rapidly.

	21-06-2002 14:19									#195
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quote: I promise to sing "Swing low" the next time I see the English team playing and winning

Thank you. I hope we give you the chance Saturday when we beat the Pumas.

RWC95 I remember Lomu single handedly destroying us there even though we played decent 'rugby' on the whole. Tony Underwood just didn't have the size to counter the bulldozer. Even so the try of the game was the England captain Will Carling (also up himself big time incdientally) popping the ball over the AB fullback in the corner.

Mind you we were amateur back then and, try as you might, with your players already contracted to the ABs back then you cannot claim you were.

RWC99 was different. We gave you too much respect and space and paid for it. France showed how you should be played - pop balls behind the wide men because when they turn they look far less impressive in defence?

quote: the Irish play with players whose great-grandmother was born on a boat in the Irish channel so it can count as being irish, and the AB count many players who could have played for the Samoa if I am not mistaken.

This would be true if we were looking at Soccer, although the Irish have got better in the last decade. But in rugby their record is much better. Despite one or two "shamrocked Kiwis" (and those guys get everywhere anyway) the Irish squad is exactly that - Irish.

And the ABs count anyone of any nationality on grandparent and residency basis. They compete with Austrlaia to sign the best young players from the entire Oceania area as young as possible so they can be qualified ASAP. It's something I don't like but with such small populations it is something they have to do.

I doubt the lads could name the last time their teams fielded 22 born and bred Aussies or Kiwis in a game?

quote: The observation about the Wallaby backs was more a theory about the difference between the two sides.

In compostion, ah right I see. Keep in mind France are comtemproary in terms ability with England at the moment - they simply cannot be taken lightly at any point, even after a loss (I know you understand this of course).

It's like if England lose to the Pumas tomrorow it means little for November, with only five senior squad men in the starting line up. Oh yeah and no - oh damn I'm not aloud to mention him am I?

And Caligastia - I promise no more politics - although I too was confused as Finbar and I were not arguing at all!

Damn - run out of time for now - later guys.

	21-06-2002 18:41									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Mind you we were amateur back then

Spare me! You mob led the way in shamateurism.

	21-06-2002 19:14									#197
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Utter nonsense that one Finbar. Where do you get that idea from?

I'm genuinely curious - we were last, slowest, and most painfully dragged into the Professional era. Shamateurism is ONLY associated with the Wallabies and Kiwis for me.

It's hard to see how you could argue this - do you remember the fuss when Campo was overtly paid in Italy and still allowed to don a Wallaby shirt? He, and many of your countrymen, launched shamateurism on us, whilst England plodded along with Doctors, lawyers ,police officers and all such great and good types.

I know for a fact that as late as 1994 England players were not actually being paid to tour or play - only travel and hotels were funded by the Union, so I have to laugh that one off Finbar, as we both know the Wallabies were being nicely paid by then?

	21-06-2002 20:26									#198
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The first time I saw Dean Richards against the Stade Toulousain (I think it was in 96-97), and as far as I can remember he was then at the top of his carreer, he was also an active policeman in the "real" life.
All the players of the english team had a job as all the French players did.

I'am not sure at all, but I think the first professional english player was Mike Catt while all the SH players were already labelled as professionals by all the TV and mewspapers of the NH.

Am I wrong Havak ?

Of course, the word "amateurism" was a great hypocrisy as many players were professionnals in disguise.

Caligastia : no, I don't blame the SH for bringing professionalism, it was a kind of necessary evolution.

Just one last word, I'am working (for the moment) in the same group of company as Hugues Miorin (a famous second row player of the Stade Toulousain now going to Colomiers) who is directing its own company. It has not been detrimental to its career, many french players are actually "half-professionals" but the younger generation, at least the most talented players, are becoming "full time professionals".

	21-06-2002 20:30									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Havak And Caligastia - I promise no more politics - although I too was confused as Finbar and I were not arguing at all!

I know you guys were agreeing, but not all who post in this thread will agree on politics, and if someone who disagrees with you cant resist joining in, things could go downhill...

Lets just stick to rugby. Thats all I am saying.

	22-06-2002 07:12									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Utter nonsense that one Finbar. Where do you get that idea from?

Yeah, okay, it was a baseless allegation. I can only claim that I was either drunk or possessed by the mendacious spirit of John O'Neill. Or both.

There are actually a couple of clubs in the Sydney comp who remain strictly amateur - proudly so - and they're doing it tough with other clubs dangling baits.

	22-06-2002 19:21									#201
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Australia 29 France 17
That was expected, though.
I think Australia played well but nothing exceptional except that they have a very good lineout.
France, on the other side, played very badly. They made fouls at half their scrums and most lineouts, resulting in a lack of balls which gave the Australians lots of ammunition to attack. That resulted in 2 nice tries in first half. On both, the French winger played badly, making a bad defense choice (he tried to stop the winger while Elhorga was there, and let Latham score) or forgetting to tackle Larkham.
I think changing the whole first row was not a good idea after all, considering the catastrophic scrum and lineout we had. No chance winning a game without gaining the ball first.
So well played, Australia, let's hope the French do better next week.

	22-06-2002 21:17									#202
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Well my predictions werent too far off the mark. I ended up being generous to Ireland as they ended up losing to the All Blacks by 32 points not 20. My prediction for France v Australia was almost spot-on as France lost by 12 not 10. I wont be so generous to the NH sides next time. Actually I think France will be a greater challenge for Australia next week as a few of their injured playmakers will be returning. Also Australia butchered a lot of opportunities with handling errors this week, so if they do the same next week France could be victorious.

New Zealand 40 Ireland 8

The All Blacks looked ordinary in the first half with a lot of handling errors, but really came back strongly in the second. They are improving every game and I look forward to seeing them play Fiji next week.

	23-06-2002 06:50									#203
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Mmmm. The Wallabies were an improvement on the week before against the Maori. I'll settle for improvement every week in light of the long season ahead. I did notice, though, a couple of changes of method - Larkham and Gregan were alternating at half back; Larkham at 5/8 was standing a lot deeper than usual, and the backs, usually in a fairly flat line, were also deeper.

It was also good to see Kefu, Finnegan and George Smith getting much more involved. It was heartening to watch them breaking the line and getting involved in some really good cleaning out.

I suspect the Wendell Sailor experiment will end with Ben Tune's return. Wendell has to do more than just break tackles. While he got involved in rucks and mauls, there were a couple of occasions when his lack of a kicking game was exposed. At one point he ran in a circle rather than kick. In fact, apparently, he went through the entire S12 season without kicking once. Sterling Mortlock had a very strong game, so I hope he and Matt Burke will swap wing and centre spots; Daniel Herbert, who is playing his best rugby for a while, should stay in the centres, and Tune should replace Wendell.

But as LDiCesare says, the French really handed the game to the Wallabies. They coughed up the ball, gave away silly penalties - the #6 in particular - and were never really in a position to exert pressure, a recipe the Wallabies thrive on. OTOH, it wasn't the team that won the 6 Nations, so I'm anticipating a different team - and a much stronger performance - next week.

Last edited by finbar on 23-06-2002 at 06:58

	23-06-2002 06:53									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Well my predictions werent too far off the mark.

Well, Scotland did thump your adopted bretheren.

Edit. Ooops! I just checked back a few pages. Sorry, Caligastia, it was our Leicester Lad who tipped Scotland, not you. OTOH, his tip did seem to be based on, um, bile rather than anything else.

quote: The All Blacks looked ordinary in the first half with a lot of handling errors, but really came back strongly in the second. They are improving every game and I look forward to seeing them play Fiji next week.

Methinks - or hopes - the Wallabies and ABs are going to continue to improve game by game.

	23-06-2002 07:11									#205
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Just a point that amuses me no end, and surprises too - considering this is the centre for the Church of Rugby Worship.

The ABs- Ireland game here last night was, I am told, DELAYED because of one of the two World Cup Quarterfinals on that night. South Korea Spain started at 6:30, and the rugby here at about 8:30 - giving plenty of time for the football to end before the rugby.

On a similar note, Wellington last night at midnight (normally pretty busy on a mild winter night) was nearly empty, with only a few dozen rugby fans and their assorted female hangers-on visible in some of the normally busiest parts of town - I can only imagine everyone eles was far more interested in Senegal's performance against Turkey than in reliving the rugby!

Incredible. In New Zealand. It's almost treason.

	23-06-2002 07:25									#206
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How bizarre. What time does the rugby normally start? Here, it's either 7pm or 7.30pm. It might also have something to do with TV coverage. Who is televising the soccer and who is televising the rugby? If it's the same outlet, that would explain it. Media rules, y'see.

BTW, do you know if Christian Cullen played club footy this weekend? He was told to by the AB selectors, apparently. Or else.

	23-06-2002 20:30									#207
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Well, Scotland did thump your adopted bretheren. Edit. Ooops! I just checked back a few pages. Sorry, Caligastia, it was our Leicester Lad who tipped Scotland, not you. OTOH, his tip did seem to be based on, um, bile rather than anything else.

They actually did end up showing it on Fox Sports world, but they didnt post it on the TV schedule till the last minute, so I didnt get to see it. Probably a good thing...my wife wouldnt have enjoyed seeing the US team taken to pieces.

quote: Methinks - or hopes - the Wallabies and ABs are going to continue to improve game by game.

I think so too. As usual, the Tri-nations is something to look forward to this year.

England's squad of younguns beat Argentina convincingly, but I wont get to see that one either. Im sure Havak will have something to say about it though.

	24-06-2002 04:11									#208
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Caligastia, I noticed last week - but forgot to post - that New Zealand thumped England by 40+ in the Under 21 World Cup.

	24-06-2002 04:29									#209
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A question for our Leicester Lad. Havak - I was talking to someone the other day who said the English club Bath don't field a #13 jersey because of (something to do with) the death of a player. Is this true? Or a myth?

	24-06-2002 13:10									#210
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Just a quick post to pick up on that last thing - I'll try to catch up with the thread ASAP and comment on the weekends rugby, which was generally high class stuff.

The answer Finbar is - not sure!

Before the game went Professional here in 95 Bath hardly ever fielded a 13 shirt meaning 14 was outside centre and the fullback wore 16. The problem is I'm not sure of the story behind it - and neither are any of the Bath fans I've spoken to about it (and keep in mind my speaking to Bath fans is like a Waratahs and Reds fan having a friendly chat)

They certainly wear the 13 shirt now - the TV contract with Sky insisted on consistency (so Tigers and Bristol gave up lettered shirts as well as Bath regaining the 13 shirt).

Sorry I couldn't be more help!

Incidentally Timmy Horan has actually refused to wear the 13 shirt at Saracens any more after a season of bad injury every time he pulled that 'jixed' shirt on - wonder what the TV will make of that?