07-06-2002 00:14									#1
	Maps Enter the AD-FREE zone

So, on what kind of maps do you like playing? The Planet map from the game, or randomly generated map? Also what sizes? I like them BIG. If not the 128x128, 192x192 or perhaps even 256x256 (although that makes the games quite too long...)

I, myself, have been creating maps based on Earth, using the MapUtility tool downloaded from here, at Apolyton, and topographic earth maps found at http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/seg/topo/globegal.shtml . The only problem is that the earth maps over there use that crappy projection that enlargens the polar areas, which doesn't add to the realism when Scandinavia equals half the size of Europe in gameplay...

So, if you like playing on Earth-based maps, do you have any special place to download the maps from? Or have you created your own maps? Also, if you have links to some sites with topographic maps that use alternative projections, please post them here. And feel free to discuss about maps in general, too!

	07-06-2002 00:25									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Ade:

Lots of maps (including a decent Earth map) over at CGN (Civilization Gaming Network)

Visit their Alpha Centauri Academy maproom at:

http://www.civgaming.net/smac/maps.shtml

G.

	07-06-2002 01:43									#3
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

And may I also in all modesty recommend my Earth map exclusivally found at the Chironian Guild.

http://smac.ask-klan.net.pl/eng/

	07-06-2002 04:59									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I played on a 1250x1250 map before as the Morganites. It got too easy. With all that breathing room at the beginning, was I able to get around the only weak point in the Morganite faction.

	07-06-2002 23:55									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I played on Googlie's map for a while yesterday. It wasn't too bad. Some mistakes, only; Central asia was FAR too little. Alaska and Kamchatka-area might have been smaller to give more space to Asia. Also, the European side of Russia was too small. And I want Finland included!!

Hmm... I would like to create a 256x256 Earth-map, but the MapUtility tool won't create that big and I'm too lazy (and incompetent) to doodle it out myself.

M@ni@c -> Sorry, I didn't even download your map. 87x89 is too small for me!

	08-06-2002 00:37									#6
	Got spare money?

It's the quality that counts.

	08-06-2002 02:57									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

1250X1250 !!!!!!!!!!
WTF! 1562500 tiles. Something would break.
Besides isn't the largest size possible 255x255 (or 256x256 maybe?).

	08-06-2002 07:31									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Yes - although you can enter an almost infinite size, the max you ever get is 256 x 512 ( which actually corresponds to a 256 square map, as the vertical count goes diagonally. But if you enter 256 x 256 you actually get 256 horizontal and 128 vertical, a sort of Ringworld.

'Twas MoSe at ACOL that pointed this out to me many moons ago when I was boasting of my million tile waterworld games

256 squared is still pretty humungous

G.

	08-06-2002 08:11									#9
	Remove this text

I make maps 256w x 208h.
Long boring mathematical reasoning in Map Sizes? in "General".
Some other threads at Apolyton re mapmaking:
Sinking land when making maps in "Creation".
Special Geographical Bonuses in "General".
Map Size Pro's and Con's in "General".

	08-06-2002 09:32									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by BustaMike 1250X1250 !!!!!!!!!! WTF! 1562500 tiles. Something would break. Besides isn't the largest size possible 255x255 (or 256x256 maybe?).

It went really slow. There is no actual limit though.

	08-06-2002 09:38									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

My good friend Brian Reynolds talks about map sizes:

quote: Map size is fully customizable. We haven't put any upper limits, but the geometric effect takes over rapidly above 256x256 or so--including path-finding AI, terrain, masks, and so forth, the game needs upwards of 50 bytes or so per map location, so for a 1000x1000, you're talking about astounding amounts of memory, not to mention the geometrically increased time to process AI and other algorithms. So basically we've allowed the upper limits to be determined by technology! Brian Reynolds Alpha Centauri Designer FIRAXIS Games

quote: * Made "custom map size" much easier to do; maximum map size limited only by your computer's sanity (& AI's ability to comprehend it all). A 256x256 map ran fine for me (65000+ squares, compared to 3200 in a standard map and ~9000 in a "huge" map). 1000x1000 (1,000,000 squares) took the AI so long to find paths it was pretty hard to play.

	08-06-2002 11:23									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse It went really slow. There is no actual limit though.

Guys - you're kidding yourselves

Regardless of what reynolds might have said in the beginning, or the number you enter, the max size is 512 x 256 (actually 511 x 255)

Enter 999 x 999 (or whatever you want - 1 million by 1 million if you like) in the custom map size, and start a game. Select "map grid on ocean squares" Move your cursor to the top left corner of the map, and find reference 0:0. Now move 1 diagonal tile left - the reference is now 511:1. Now scroll down to the bottom of the screen. The map reference is now 511:255.

Try it. Any x:y value greater than 512:256 produces the same result (and I'm not limited by PC power - it's was the same on my old 200MMX as it is on my current P4 1.8 with 512 MB RAM

G.

	08-06-2002 18:36									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Must be something to do with the algorithms - 512 and 256 are common multiple cutoff points...

Anyway, I tend to play on the maps of planet for authenticity, DilithiumDad's Ultimate Builder Map for a challenge, or a totally random map for aggravation (dammit why do they always start yang so far away from me...)

	08-06-2002 19:51									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

Maybe one of the later patches put a cap on. It is/was possible to do this though.

Back in the day I ran a site called the Alpha Centauri Nexus, which was part of Sidgames. In January of '99 Apolyton and Sidgames were in heavy competition. In early January I ran into a slow newsday. Only 3 bits of news. I decided to go bash Call to Power for awhile. Anyway, the unlimited map sizes of that game came up. I never read anything about SMAC have limited map sizes so edited some things in the demo and put a map size of 1000 * 1000. It took me three attempts to get this work because it was a large strain on my system. Once it was evident that there were actually 1,000,000 squares, I posted this as news. I entitled it "One less thing CTP has over SMAC (not that CTP really has anything good anyway)" or something to that affect. That post got Peter from Activision upset so I ended up having to change the title. Anyway, the news post led to the first quote from Brian Reynolds I posted earlier.

	09-06-2002 00:25									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Apocalypse, the "later patch" you refer to must then be... the game first release itself.
Jan '99 is indeed prior to game release in Europe.
I got the game on Feb 23rd 99. The v2 patch came shortly after.
I remember discussing this in spring 99 at owo, and we soon found out that the limit was 256x256, regardless the big figures you entered.
At latest, it could be the very first patch, I can't be conclusive on that, but I think we tested it also for the original game.
Thus what you say must only allegedly apply to the demo...
Googlie is right.

Goglie, remember that when you read an X coordinate of 511, you have entered a 256: horizontal coordinates are doubled, because each column is split in two and "zigzag" staggered (you have 0,0 - 1,1 - 0,2 - 1,3 but not 0,1 or 1,2: the sum of cells in the TWO columns 0,* and 1,* is thus 256 like if it were a single "normal" column, not 512).
___
EDIT to make it maybe clearer, Googlie:
if you enter 512x256 when asked for the custom size, you get the SAME map as when you enter 256x256

Last edited by MariOne on 09-06-2002 at 00:32

	09-06-2002 00:29									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Quote number two is after the release of the game. It is from mid February.

	09-06-2002 04:08									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

I believe you, but that proves nothing.
As Googlie said, BR was very likely reporting things he experienced while developing the game, without knowing how his game actually evovled after release. I wouldn't be surprised.

You're talking us anyway of things 3 years old, or 3 yrs + 2 months, or 3 yrs + 4 months.
And 5 patches old.
Or 4 patches old.
Doesn't make all that difference, don't you think?

Thanks for the bits of history.
For those intersted to play the game NOW, be aware that entering Planetsize figure bigger than 256x256 is MOOT.

	09-06-2002 04:24									#18
	Tired of ads?

Well, whaddayaknow, you can.

I went to alphax.txt and changed the size of HUGE from its 64:128 default to 512:1024

Then I started a scenario and selected huge map - selected 50% water, and after about 3 minutes it loaded.

I put a PK sea colony pod at the 1023:1023 co-ordinate and saved and zipped it.

It's 800 kb, too big to apend here, but if you'd like to see it, e-mail me at linfrew@aol.com and I'll send it to you (of course it's easy enough for you to just change the Huge default size in alpha.txt or alphax.txt yourself)

	09-06-2002 04:51									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I knew I was right.

I'm a regular Keeper of Wisdom.

	17-06-2002 07:44									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

So...this means that by changing the defined size of one of the "named" sizes, you can overide whatever limit was placed on "custom"?

	17-06-2002 09:09									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yes.

	17-06-2002 15:50									#22
	Inflate your Upload Space

Googlie, you'd remember that I was the one finding out the liitation, but then you could verify it yourself when I pointed it out to you.
So it's not just one of my dreams, the maximum *actual* map size WAS indeed 256x256, from the very early days for a long time on.
This issue resurfaced 3 or 4 times over the years, and it was not just me or you, several other players verified after us that you could not override those limits.

Of coure, we DID attempt alternate methods, so we did already try to alter the default sizes entries in alpha.txt, or the stored custom ones (in alphacentauri.ini IIRC), and none worked.

If those workarounds work now, could it be a SMAX fix?
Or did you try with SMAC too?
I note you refer to alphax.txt, while I worked with SMAC only (alpha.txt) and I admit I didn't check it with SMAX too.

	17-06-2002 22:17									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I used to play on a huge map. But after a few games with the 2-in-diagonal base placement I decided to go for a somewhat smaller map.

	18-06-2002 04:37									#24
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Adalbertus I used to play on a huge map. But after a few games with the 2-in-diagonal base placement I decided to go for a somewhat smaller map.

Adalbertus,

How much of the huge map were you able to cover playing 2 x 2? I know the problem, I have so many bases, and only a small portion of the map is used.

I've found that Yang and Morgan do quite well with this spacing, perhaps better than anyone else. Zach likes it also, as it helps him avoid his extra drone problems. I haven't tried it with anyone else yet.

	18-06-2002 07:07									#25
	Support Apolyton

Morgans are better with wide spacing. If you spend most of you time in the beginning just expanding, you'll have many large cities in the latter half of the game. With a booming economy, the game after that point is easy.

	18-06-2002 11:54									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Sikander, this depends on the game (of course) but i'm usually approaching 80 bases or so: All original names, all xxx Sector, and normally 10 or 20 bases more. In the middle to late game I spend most of the time in deciding what to rush buy.

Maybe those strategies with a big empty space inside your empire for lots of crawlers makes it more manageable. I'll have to try that. On the other hand, effects like lots of cities -> lots of free minerals or lots of bases -> more population growth, lots of bases -> more production (you can't produce more than one item per base per turn, no matter how many minerals you crawl) are the late game strength of dense spacing.

And that's why I think even Morgan is better off with dense spacing. Before hab complexes, Morgan even doesn't feel the limitations of dense spacing (as this leaves workable tiles per base), and he gets a lot of bases in place much faster.

	18-06-2002 17:14									#27
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I don't start off dense spacing and I never feel the hab complex limitations. I just keep pumping out colonies.

	21-06-2002 01:56									#28
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hmm...

How big can I run it, I do so wonder.

All those bases, and all those drones to nerve-staple...

	21-06-2002 07:39									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

dont they stop being affected after 5-10 times of stapling?

	22-06-2002 02:23									#30
	Remove this text

Meh. With all those people, I won't run out of people to staple