17-06-2002 07:47									#91
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

a) The NEP didn't abridge the basic rights and freedoms of any Canadian. You just didn't get your way on an issue and have spent the last 15 years griping.

b)

quote: The constitution hasn't stopped the government from doing REALLY stupid stuff like canceling the Military Helicopter contracts at a massive penalty, only to reorder SHITTIER helicopters a few years later at a greater cost, etc.

This is silly. A Constitution protects the basic rights and freedoms of individual Canadians. It cannot (and should not even try to) protect against a government making bad decisions. Only the electorate has that responsibility

c)

quote: We need a useful Senate that takes away Liberal-majority power. Whether that's a system like the US' (which I think works great for the US), or whether it's a system based on proportional representation doesn't really matter to me

Why don't we just stop the government from having any legislative power whatsoever (or requiring that all bills get a 2/3 majority before passing)? That'll protect us, right?

d)

quote: The Liberal dictatorship must be stopped

The federal government doesn't do what I want them to do, so let's change the form of government. Why not just hoist the bloody red flag and have done with it, sweetie?

	17-06-2002 07:51									#92
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui In different states? Why shouldn't each state (which has a lot of its own seperate laws) have equal representation in ONE branch of the federal government?

Why shouldn't each county have equal representation in ONE branch of New York's state government. What does it matter that Hicksville, NY has a population of 5 000 and that King's County has a population of a million?

	17-06-2002 07:52									#93
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Most Americans dislike both branches of congress. I totally disagree. 100% in fact. They'd rather have that than Proportional Representation.

Care to produce any evidence in support of this?

Polls routinely show a favorability rating of <50% for the Senate, and often it is <30%. How on earth can you then assert it is loved by the people?

I bet most Americans would favor proportional representation, as more Americans would benefit from it than didn't.

	17-06-2002 07:53									#94
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse a) The NEP didn't abridge the basic rights and freedoms of any Canadian. You just didn't get your way on an issue and have spent the last 15 years griping.

The NEP broke the basic rights guaranteed to Alberta to own and control its resources, agreed to in 1930. The Liberal Federal government trumped this agreement and raped the province anyway.

quote: b) This is silly. A Constitution protects the basic rights and freedoms of individual Canadians. It cannot (and should not even try to) protect against a government making bad decisions. Only the electorate has that responsibility

Hey, now you're getting it!
That's why we can't just rely on the constitution! Very good, KrazyHorse!

quote: c) Why don't we just stop the government from having any legislative power whatsoever (or requiring that all bills get a 2/3 majority before passing)? That'll protect us, right?

It would protect us, actually.
On the other hand, it wouldn't do anything at all, which isn't GOOD for us.

We need to strike a balance.

quote: d) The federal government doesn't do what I want them to do, so let's change the form of government. Why not just hoist the bloody red flag and have done with it, sweetie?

Don't be such a moron, KrazyHorse.

We're not changing the form of government, it's still a constitutional monarchy based on representational democracy. What we're doing is replacing a useless senate with a useful one which lessens the sickeningly-high amount of power the majority party gets.

	17-06-2002 07:53									#95
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Why shouldn't each county have equal representation in ONE branch of New York's state government. What does it matter that Hicksville, NY has a population of 5 000 and that King's County has a population of a million?

Don't y'all be dissin' Hicksville, ya hear?

And Kings County has much more than 1 million!

And yes, our votes should count as much as anyone else's does, dammit!

	17-06-2002 07:54									#96
	Tired of ads?

The unrepresentative Senate would block any attempt at distributing power equally. Makes sense, right?

35 states would lose power and 15 states would gain it.

	17-06-2002 08:01									#97
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Asher The NEP broke the basic rights guaranteed to Alberta to own and control its resources, agreed to in 1930. The Liberal Federal government trumped this agreement and raped the province anyway

quote: Hey, now you're getting it! That's why we can't just rely on the constitution! Very good, KrazyHorse!

Please explain how your unrepresentative Senate would guard against bad decisions. They're elected by the same people as the other branch.

quote: It would protect us, actually. On the other hand, it wouldn't do anything at all, which isn't GOOD for us

Now you're getting it.

quote: Don't be such a moron, KrazyHorse. We're not changing the form of government, it's still a constitutional monarchy based on representational democracy. What we're doing is replacing a useless senate with a useful one which lessens the sickeningly-high amount of power the majority party gets.

What you're doing is trying to whine your way into more representation than you deserve. Please explain why it's fair or democratic to give your vote more say than mine in any branch of federal government.

	17-06-2002 08:04									#98
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The unrepresentative Senate would block any attempt at distributing power equally. Makes sense, right? 35 states would lose power and 15 states would gain it.

Whats it matter anyways?

Big business/ super rich control the media, and they control the political parties. They decide every single election by running a good /bad story here and there, and when it comes right down to it all parties do the exact same thing in the US. IN canada we toss in the NDP which are just a bunch of union/mafia/morons.

	17-06-2002 08:05									#99
	Get a bigger avatar today!

The Senate does not preserve individual rights.

It only helps people in low population states to trample on individual rights of all people in the country the way they want - insuring the rule of the minority over the majority.

	17-06-2002 08:06									#100
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Ramo The Senate does not preserve individual rights. It only helps people in low population states to trample on individual rights of all people in the country the way they want - insuring the rule of the minority over the majority.

Exactly.

	17-06-2002 08:07									#101
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse

Yeah, that's very typical. You don't care because it's not you or your family that lost thier jobs and homes due to the greed of Ottawa.

quote: Please explain how your unrepresentative Senate would guard against bad decisions. They're elected by the same people as the other branch.

It's quite simple, really: The Liberals would not have a majority of the seats in the Senate. They'd retain the majority of the seats in the HoC and by having the PM/Cabinet, but the Senate would act as a counterbalance to ensure the needs of those minorities are respected.

quote: Now you're getting it.

The Senate would still function, KrazyHorse. I'm not talking about replacing the entire f*cking system to be a Senate. There's a uhge difference.

quote: What you're doing is trying to whine your way into more representation than you deserve. Please explain why it's fair or democratic to give your vote more say than mine in any branch of federal government.

You are seriously acting so very, very stupid right now that it's getting unbearable to debate you.

You are obviously incapable of viewing this from anyone other than the majority provinces, so why don't you just piss off already. We already know you misinformed opinion.

	17-06-2002 08:07									#102
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Ramo The Senate does not preserve individual rights. It only helps people in low population states to trample on individual rights of all people in the country the way they want - insuring the rule of the minority over the majority.

Mark this day: Ramo and I agree.

Wow, and I agreed with Sava today, too. The Apocalypse must be nigh...

	17-06-2002 08:09									#103
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I don't know how many times I need to say this:

The purpose of a democracy is to have rule of the majority while respecting the rights and needs of the minorities.

Right now in Canada, we simply have rule of the majority. This is well and good for those of you in the majority (KrazyHorse), but for anyone not in the majority, you get the sharp end of the stick from a large and overbearing Ottawa with seemingly unlimited power given to the "majority government" (which in fact only represents the view of 40% of the people, but that doesn't really matter...)

	17-06-2002 08:11									#104
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ramo The Senate does not preserve individual rights. It only helps people in low population states to trample on individual rights of all people in the country the way they want - insuring the rule of the minority over the majority.

Ya but the whole USA system is a oligarchy, it really doesn't matter how you change the system there. The same people are going to be in power no matter what.

Whats the going rate for a senate seat in the US these days?

	17-06-2002 08:11									#105
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Ramo The Senate does not preserve individual rights. It only helps people in low population states to trample on individual rights of all people in the country the way they want - insuring the rule of the minority over the majority.

Bullshit, Ramo, Bullshit.

That would be true if the ENTIRE DAMN SYSTEM WAS BASED ON THE IDEA.

But it's NOT.

2/3 of the branches are based upon population. The other 1/3 is there for minority rights.

You can't "insure the rule of the minority" when the minority has slightly more control in 1 out of 3 branches, when the Majority still has way more control in 2 out of 3 branches.

You physics types sure seem to lack a lot in the field of common sense.

	17-06-2002 08:12									#106
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

How can a majority government represent only 40% of the people? Seems like you're contradicting yourself.

	17-06-2002 08:14									#107
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov How can a majority government represent only 40% of the people? Seems like you're contradicting yourself.

Yeah, it's pretty stupid isn't it?
40% of Canadian voters voted Liberal, but because of how the system is set up they won something like 60% of the seats.

Since the Senate is actually useless, it's not a factor.

So Canada has 2 branches of government left: House of Commons, and the Prime Minister & his Cabinet. In fact, they're one and the same.

Whoever has >50% in the House of Commons makes up the Prime Minister as well as his cabinet.

So right now in Canada, the Liberals have full and complete control over everything in the federal government. Even though only 40% of the population voted for them.

Which is why the system desperately needs some kind of reform.

	17-06-2002 08:15									#108
	Increase Your PM Length

The fundamental rights and all minorities are guaranteed by the Constitution. Any system of arbitrarily assigning more power to certain regions does nothing to alleviate the problem of a minority being trampled on; it simply gives better protection to one brand of minority (people living in PEI), while taking away protections from another brand (English Quebecers, for instance).

	17-06-2002 08:15									#109
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Asher Right now in Canada, we simply have rule of the majority. This is well and good for those of you in the majority (KrazyHorse), but for anyone not in the majority, you get the sharp end of the stick from a large and overbearing Ottawa with seemingly unlimited power given to the "majority government" (which in fact only represents the view of 40% of the people, but that doesn't really matter...)

You are whining.


democracy is the rule of the majority.. Anything else is a dictatorship

	17-06-2002 08:16									#110
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov How can a majority government represent only 40% of the people? Seems like you're contradicting yourself.

Because of first past the post and multi-party elections.

	17-06-2002 08:16									#111
	Put an end to popups!

You mean, it needs Reform...

I'm putting my faith in a provincial Marijuana Party victory in BC spurring them on to Federal politics...

(could happen, check last elections stats!)

	17-06-2002 08:17									#112
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The fundamental rights and all minorities are guaranteed by the Constitution.

Shut up about individual rights, when did I ever mention individuals?

quote: Any system of arbitrarily assigning more power to certain regions does nothing to alleviate the problem of a minority being trampled on; it simply gives better protection to one brand of minority (people living in PEI), while taking away protections from another brand (English Quebecers, for instance).

What the hell are you talking about?

	17-06-2002 08:17									#113
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

But I'm assuming that, even though they got 40%, that was the highest percentage of votes for a single party, and ergo they won the plurality.

That seems the same as the American system to me, because winning an election is (generally) based on winning a plurality, not a majority. I mean, Clinton never won a majority, so it's logical to assume that his administration was one big minority administration, under this logic.

	17-06-2002 08:18									#114
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by markusf You are whining. democracy is the rule of the majority.. Anything else is a dictatorship

Rule of the majority is a dictatorship when there's nothing stopping the party in power.

	17-06-2002 08:19									#115
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by markusf democracy is the rule of the majority.. Anything else is a dictatorship

So if I can get 51% of the people in Canada to agree that people with the internet nickname markusf should die, you'd abide by thier decision?

	17-06-2002 08:19									#116
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov That seems the same as the American system to me, because winning an election is (generally) based on winning a plurality, not a majority. I mean, Clinton never won a majority, so it's logical to assume that his administration was one big minority administration, under this logic.

The difference is you actually have different branches of government.

There is effectively 1 branch in Canada, while there are 3 in the US. That's why Canada needs to be reformed.

How would you like it if Bush had full and complete control over everything? Bush and his cronies are the ONLY people who can propose bills. Bush and his cronies have majority in the only legislative body that can pass or fail it. Bush and his Cronies fire people from the party who get in their way (see Paul Martin/Chretien fiasco).

Welcome to Canada.

	17-06-2002 08:21									#117
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc So if I can get 51% of the people in Canada to agree that people with the internet nickname markusf should die, you'd abide by thier decision?

No, because the rule of the majority is tempered by the rights guaranteed in the Constitution.

	17-06-2002 08:23									#118
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov No, because the rule of the majority is tempered by the rights guaranteed in the Constitution.

That's not democratic according to markusf. In fact, it would qualify as a dictatorship.

	17-06-2002 08:25									#119
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Asher, the Bush scenario would be entirely plausible if the Senate were once again under the control of the Republicans, so the analogy fails.

The Liberals don't have to exercise total control in Canada, as the people can vote them out in the next election should they wish. That is not tyrany, that is democracy.

	17-06-2002 08:26									#120
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc That's not democratic according to markusf. In fact, it would qualify as a dictatorship.

Yeah...well...what do he know?