17-06-2002 08:52									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The current system is an unfair distribution of representation. Canada is huge and diverse, and you still seem to think it's okay that if 1001 of the people want to do something, and 1000 people don't, then it's still fine because the majority has ruled.

You make no sence, that is what rule of the majority is. So your saying if 900 people want to something and 300 don't then you can't do it? maybe 900 vs 30? So what exactly are you saying, that you can't do something unless 100% agree?

	17-06-2002 08:52									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Err... no. IOW, the minority ends up trampling on the "rights" (assigning rights to political parties/divisions is silly) of the majority.

How so? Give me an example.

	17-06-2002 08:53									#153
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quote: Originally posted by markusf You make no sence, that is what rule of the majority is. So your saying if 900 people want to something and 300 don't then you can't do it? maybe 900 vs 30? So what exactly are you saying, that you can't do something unless 100% agree?

Go away blackice.

	17-06-2002 08:55									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov There has never been a government, ever, that has served the will of every one of its citizens, nor will there ever be. This is because, realistically, there will be completely contradictory ideaology among many citizens. The best any government can hope to do is to serve the will of as many people as it can while adhering to constitutional protection of all citizens.

The problem is some people's brains can't fathom the possibility of large minority groups seeking representation as well.

They prefer to dumb everything down to simple "50.00000000000000001% want this, so we shall do it" type approaches. There needs to be a system that allows for the large minority groups to have a say in politics as well. This is their country also, who cares if they're not the complete majority? They don't MAKE bills, but they can still have their (overrepresented in one branch) say in a bill if they strongly disagree with it.

	17-06-2002 08:56									#155
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No, you go away.

Markus sees the eventual results of your line of reasoning, and you're either deliberately or accidentally missing them.

The Constitution guarantees fundamental individual rights. The rest is up to the electorate of 50%+1.

	17-06-2002 08:56									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Go away blackice.

I am not a DL. Now are you going to answer the question? How many people have to vote no before your not allowed to do something?

	17-06-2002 08:57									#157
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quote: There needs to be a system that allows for the large minority groups to have a say in politics as well

There already is. That's the beauty of representational democracy; you don't vote on every single issue, so the value you place on an issue has a role to play in who you vote for.

	17-06-2002 08:59									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Asher There needs to be a system that allows for the large minority groups to have a say in politics as well. This is their country also, who cares if they're not the complete majority? They don't MAKE bills, but they can still have their (overrepresented in one branch) say in a bill if they strongly disagree with it.

We tend to call those lobby groups, and they are catered to far more then the so called majority.

	17-06-2002 09:01									#159
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And once again, the U.S. Senate can and does make bills, so what you're in favor of is not a U.S.-style Senate.

	17-06-2002 09:02									#160
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Asher is living in a dreamworld if he thinks Alberta's interests will be protected by a US-style senate. His theory is severely flawed

Alberta won't get a bigger voice
Just look at the numbers. Under a US-style system, Alberta would only have 10 per cent of the seats while Eastern Canada would have 60 per cent. A US-style senate would make it easier for Eastern Canada to dominate the government.

A US-style senate won't protect Alberta's interests
With only 10 per cent of the senate seats, Alberta would not be able to block bills that hurt it.

The system isn't to blame for the Liberal's power
Asher blames the parliamentary system for the Liberal's dominance in government. This is untrue. The Liberals dominate federal politics because the right-wing is divided. When the right-wing is united, the conservatives have formed the government.

US-style system leads to passing the buck
As Boris said, under the parliamentary system, the electors know who to blame and who to praise. When the Liberals created the NEP, they were kicked out of office in the next election. The PCs were kicked out of office after Mulroney screwed things up.

The Senate system allows politicians to blame each other for problems they have created.

US-style system leads to deadlock
Usually, if the Republicans control the senate then voters elect the Democracts to control the house. So you end up with a perpetual deadlock.

US-senate gives too much power to the minority
Under the US system, individual politicians gain too much power. The only way to get a bill passed is to hand out goodies to individual politicians. (politican A will support farm subsidies if politician B supports corporate welfare) The result is inefficient.

A democratic system is based on majority rules
Asher doesn't like this system because his far right-wing voice doesn't get heard. But why should his minority opinion be forced upon the majority?

The Canadian senate is useless, but that does not justify creating an American-style senate.

	17-06-2002 09:04									#161
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Ah, tingkai. I agree wholeheartedly with each and every one of those points.

	17-06-2002 09:05									#162
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quote: How so? Give me an example.

Sure.
Can't think of a recent example at the moment, but consider, for example, the Compromise of 1850. The Compromise arose over the fate of the Western territories annexed from Mexico. The majority of people and the House and President supported making the territories free states. But the Senate didn't like it, so they forced the majority to accept the Fugitive Slave Act, a law that forced Northern states to return escaped slaves to their owners, and have the fate of slavery in the territories excluding California be determined by their populations.

	17-06-2002 09:07									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Alberta won't get a bigger voice Just look at the numbers. Under a US-style system, Alberta would only have 10 per cent of the seats while Eastern Canada would have 60 per cent. A US-style senate would make it easier for Eastern Canada to dominate the government. A US-style senate won't protect Alberta's interests With only 10 per cent of the senate seats, Alberta would not be able to block bills that hurt it.

Hey, Tingkai. Perhaps you should read sometimes.

I said the Senate would give the Liberals a minority in the Senate, I've said nothing specifically about getting Alberta more power.

quote: The system isn't to blame for the Liberal's power Asher blames the parliamentary system for the Liberal's dominance in government. This is untrue. The Liberals dominate federal politics because the right-wing is divided. When the right-wing is united, the conservatives have formed the government.

I don't care for the reasoning behind WHY the majority exists.

All I know, and have been talking about, is that the majority government has unlimited power in Canada. And that's outrageous.

quote: US-style system leads to passing the buck As Boris said, under the parliamentary system, the electors know who to blame and who to praise. When the Liberals created the NEP, they were kicked out of office in the next election. The PCs were kicked out of office after Mulroney screwed things up.

You can't blame unless you vote for parties only? Are you that stupid, Tingkai?

quote: US-style system leads to deadlock Usually, if the Republicans control the senate then voters elect the Democracts to control the house. So you end up with a perpetual deadlock.

Strangely the US has more productive stuff going on than Canada. How long did it take us to make the anti-terror legislation again?

quote: US-senate gives too much power to the minority Under the US system, individual politicians gain too much power. The only way to get a bill passed is to hand out goodies to individual politicians. (politican A will support farm subsidies if politician B supports corporate welfare) The result is inefficient.

"Too much power" is relative. If you're in the majority, then it's too much. If you're in the minority, it's not enough. Strike a balance.

quote: A democratic system is based on majority rules Asher doesn't like this system because his far right-wing voice doesn't get heard. But why should his minority opinion be forced upon the majority?

Why should your opinion be forced on mine? Because you outnumber me?

	17-06-2002 09:08									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov And once again, the U.S. Senate can and does make bills, so what you're in favor of is not a U.S.-style Senate.

Okay, US style senate without bill making ability. I was assuming that part of Canada's system would remain fixed.

	17-06-2002 09:10									#165
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quote: Originally posted by markusf You make no sence, that is what rule of the majority is. So your saying if 900 people want to something and 300 don't then you can't do it? maybe 900 vs 30? So what exactly are you saying, that you can't do something unless 100% agree?

There must a reason that the 300 people don't want to do it. And would those reasons be?

Perhaps it's something that acts in the benefit of the 900 people at the expense of the 300?

That's the whole idea of the system.

	17-06-2002 09:11									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Sure. Can't think of a recent example at the moment, but consider, for example, the Compromise of 1850. The Compromise arose over the fate of the Western territories annexed from Mexico. The majority of people and the House and President supported making the territories free states. But the Senate didn't like it, so they forced the majority to accept the Fugitive Slave Act, a law that forced Northern states to return escaped slaves to their owners, and have the fate of slavery in the territories excluding California be determined by their populations.

Alright, and how for counterexamples:
1. NEP
2. Liberals inability to redraw Alberta's ridings
3. Kyoto

Neither system is perfect, but the US' is least flawed.

	17-06-2002 09:12									#167
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quote: I said the Senate would give the Liberals a minority in the Senate, I've said nothing specifically about getting Alberta more power

It would force the Liberals into a coalition with the NDP, whose voice would be huge relative to their support. I'm sure you'd be happy with that.

	17-06-2002 09:13									#168
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quote: Why should your opinion be forced on mine? Because you outnumber me?

Yes.

	17-06-2002 09:13									#169
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse It would force the Liberals into a coalition with the NDP, whose voice would be huge relative to their support. I'm sure you'd be happy with that.

So why are you afraid of it?

I don't think the NDP would go into a coalition with the Liberals on most issues. They're not the same party.

	17-06-2002 09:14									#170
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Yes.

And you honestly expect those continued minorities to "suck it up because Ontario and Quebec want it this way, so you should learn to deal with it"?

Get over yourself, man.

	17-06-2002 09:15									#171
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The Liberals have formed coalition governments with the NDP before. It got us Medicare the first time. The Liberals couldn't ally with anybody else, since the PC are too mule-headed and are traditional enemies.

	17-06-2002 09:15									#172
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quote: Alright, and how for counterexamples:

Conterexamples for what? What do they demonstrate?

	17-06-2002 09:15									#173
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Nothing. He's taken policies he disagrees with and says that that's what you get when you let the great unwashed decide things.

	17-06-2002 09:16									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Asher There must a reason that the 300 people don't want to do it. And would those reasons be? Perhaps it's something that acts in the benefit of the 900 people at the expense of the 300? That's the whole idea of the system.

Why do 5% of the population believe elvis is alive?

So if 95% of the population says we want more free trade with the USA we can't do it because 5% say no?

Whats the percentage of people who accidently mark the wrong box on a ballet? Your living in a fantasy world, there is no way your going to get a 100% vote on anything.

	17-06-2002 09:16									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Conterexamples for what? What do they demonstrate?

They demonstrate how the lack of a regional-based counterbalance can lead to the interests of the majority at the expense of a minority.

	17-06-2002 09:17									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Asher And you honestly expect those continued minorities to "suck it up because Ontario and Quebec want it this way, so you should learn to deal with it"? Get over yourself, man.

I expect anybody who's decided against on national policy issues to suck it upi and live with the law of the land, agreed to by a majority of citizens.

EDIT: forgot two or three words in my haste.

	17-06-2002 09:17									#177
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quote: Originally posted by markusf So if 95% of the population says we want more free trade with the USA we can't do it because 5% say no? How many of those 5%.

This is outrageous, a Senate wouldn't allow for that and you know it.

quote: Your living in a fantasy world, there is no way your going to get a 100% vote on anything.

I never said that. At all.

Are you even following this thread?

	17-06-2002 09:19									#178
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I expect anybody who's decided against on national policy issues to suck it upi and live with the law of the land, agreed to by a majority of citizens. EDIT: forgot two or three words in my haste.

And you honestly don't think there will be a growing movement for Alberta to secede since the rest of Canada has that attitude, while at the same time taking 70 cents per dollar in energy revenue we have?

	17-06-2002 09:20									#179
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quote: Are you even following this thread?

Are you? If 90% of Canada thinks energy policy should be run a certain way and Alberta disagrees wih it, then you'll have to do some fast talking and interpret the idea of democracy pretty loosely if you think that this should be enough to stop it from going through.

EDIT: Added quote because of X-post.

	17-06-2002 09:23									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Asher And you honestly don't think there will be a growing movement for Alberta to secede since the rest of Canada has that attitude, while at the same time taking 70 cents per dollar in energy revenue we have?

You're at 10% support. Quebec has whined for 30 years with solid 40%+ support and still hasn't gotten much in the way of concrete gains. Welcome to the club, Asher.

By the way, Albertan distrust of Ottawa is nothing new. It has very little to do with any particular issue. It's like Quebec separatism that way...