19-06-2002 18:13									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Ned No more Mr. Nice Guy. The gloves come off. This action is bound to send shockwaves through the world. Israeli's will be deleriously happy. Arafat will be outraged. Liberals across the world will erupt into the streets in protest. But what will Bush do? JERUSALEM (AP) - In a major policy change, Israel will seize and reoccupy Palestinian lands until "acts of terror" against its civilians end, the government said early Wednesday, responding to a suicide bombing that killed 19 bus passengers and wounded 55 others. Shortly after the announcement, Israeli tanks and troops invaded the West Bank city of Nablus, witnesses said. Israeli tanks earlier rolled into Jenin and its refugee camp. Israel says many attacks have been launched from the two areas. There were no immediate reports of casualties in either action.

hi ,

still its not what the security services want , ....
but in order to go all the way , the constitution would have to be rewriten , .... and nobody wants that , ....

have a nice day

	19-06-2002 18:24									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Or how about going after the terrorist infrastructure AND COMING UP WITH A POLITICAL SOLUTION ?

He's leaving the job of coming up with a political solution to Bush.

	19-06-2002 18:27									#33
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Yes Arafat is in quite a dilemma. But he can solve the problem very easily. He can please his fellow Palestinians who support the suicide bombings and he can also satisfy the world's demands for peace by blowing himself up instead of letting children do the fighting for him.

	19-06-2002 18:52									#34
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I'd agree with the original reaction in this thread: Bush was gonna say something that Sharon doesn't like, so he went into full attack mode, which of course pretty much screws up any US plans to have peace talks.

Blah.

-Arrian

	19-06-2002 18:55									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I'd agree with the original reaction in this thread: Bush was gonna say something that Sharon doesn't like, so he went into full attack mode, which of course pretty much screws up any US plans to have peace talks.

Ummm... You seem to be forgetting yesterday.

Sharon didnt decide to attack because he didnt like the speech, 19 innocents were murdered.

If there is someone to blame for this, it's the Pals. Before the teract there was relative quiet.

	19-06-2002 19:00									#36
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Eli,

Yeah, I know about the bombing (and I'm truely sorry it happened - I don't mean to belittle it), but I don't think that's the reason for this response. It plays a role (that of the excuse), but I think there is more going on here.

Sharon has no plan. No strategy beyond the standard:

Israeli reprisal for a Pal bombing. Over and over and over and over and over...

Maybe he really just is this stupid. Maybe. But I don't think so. I think he really does reject the idea of political solution with the Pals - he's convinced that he can never trust them, and therefore he intends to contain them with the IDF as best he can.

-Arrian

	19-06-2002 19:06									#37
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"He's leaving the job of coming up with a political solution to Bush."

It would be funny, if it weren't so true.

Eli: Buses have been blown up on a pretty regular basis up till now, without a change in policy. I don't think it a coincidence the timing of this policy shift.

	19-06-2002 19:08									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Ummm... You seem to be forgetting yesterday. Sharon didnt decide to attack because he didnt like the speech, 19 innocents were murdered. If there is someone to blame for this, it's the Pals. Before the teract there was relative quiet.

Surely you know by know by now that Pal supporters have very short memories. They express their condolances over the victims of a terrorist attack and the next day when Israel responds it is as if they devised some evil plot over night. The fault is always Israels in their eyes regardless of restraint or action so I suggest that you do whatever is necessary regardless of what these people think.

There is no country on earth that would be expected to put up with their kids being blown up in busses and shopping malls except Israel. This is called antisemitism regardless of the empty claims to the contrary.

	19-06-2002 19:12									#39
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Eli: Buses have been blown up on a pretty regular basis up till now, without a change in policy. I don't think it a coincidence the timing of this policy shift.

I agree.

But Arrian was putting the blame for disrupting Bush's "peace plan" solely on Sharon after weekly suicide bombings in Israel and a wave of warnings.

	19-06-2002 19:13									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Surely you know by know by now that Pal supporters have very short memories. They express their condolances over the victims of a terrorist attack and the next day when Israel responds it is as if they devised some evil plot over night. The fault is always Israels in their eyes regardless of restraint or action so I suggest that you do whatever is necessary regardless of what these people think.

I take strong exception to this remark, Lincoln, as it was directed at me. Specifically, the part in bold print. I am no Palestinian apologist. But neither am I particularly fond of Israeli policy. Frankly, I'm disgusted by both sides, and have been for years. My posts on this forum have always reflected that.

I understand the Israeli desire to take action after their citizens are blown to bits. But surely by now the unending cycle of bombing -> IDF reprisal -> bombing -> IDF reprisal would have become apparent to those in charge? The military response does not solve the problem. And that's all I really care about : a solution.

-Arrian

	19-06-2002 19:20									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Eli I agree. But Arrian was putting the blame for disrupting Bush's "peace plan" solely on Sharon after weekly suicide bombings in Israel and a wave of warnings.

The timing seemed fishy, as Dan pointed out. Maybe I'm wrong. But I simply don't trust Sharon. Not one little bit. He has shown in the past that if he doesn't like US policy or US demands on him, he will ignore it or attempt to undermine it. Just my opinion, but I don't think the man has any interest in peace.

-Arrian

p.s. Clearly, the suicide bombers & those that help them are also to blame - they're the ones deliberately murdering innocent civilians. That's so obvious I didn't feel the need to mention it.

	19-06-2002 19:23									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I take strong exception to this remark, Lincoln, as it was directed at me. Specifically, the part in bold print. I am no Palestinian apologist. But neither am I particularly fond of Israeli policy. Frankly, I'm disgusted by both sides, and have been for years. My posts on this forum have always reflected that. I understand the Israeli desire to take action after their citizens are blown to bits. But surely by now the unending cycle of bombing -> IDF reprisal -> bombing -> IDF reprisal would have become apparent to those in charge? The military response does not solve the problem. And that's all I really care about : a solution. -Arrian

Well actually I wasn't directing my comments at people like you because I do not really know where you stand until now that you have explained your position. I was directing my remarks toward die hard Palestinian supporters who find themselves worthy judges of every response that Israel takes to having their children blown to bits. I suggest that some of these people watch their own kids and wives and friends fly into the air in several pieces before they condemn every act that Israel takes in response to this. What would you do if an "oppressed minority" marched in your neighborhood and as they passed by they exploded a bomb that killed your kids and friends? Would you blame the police who responded to the attack or the "oppressed" people who blew your kids up?

	19-06-2002 19:28									#43
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But Arrian was putting the blame for disrupting Bush's "peace plan" solely on Sharon after weekly suicide bombings in Israel and a wave of warnings.

Bush spent an incredible amount of time, deliberation, and political capital on coming up with a plan that everyone could support. He spent a good two months lining up support worldwide. He gave Sharon a week's advance notice on what he was going to say. The administration danced for a whole week so it would be just right...

And then Sharon fvcks it all up, while giving no indication that he has a durable end-game in mind. Hell, we don't even know what Sharon's goals are!

It is becoming increasingly difficult to work with your government, Eli. Bush's team has had a ton more patience than I would have had in these circumstances.

	19-06-2002 19:29									#44
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Eli thinks that Sharon's already dancing too much for Europe+US.

Sharon's been too soft on the Pals.

	19-06-2002 19:33									#45
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Eli thinks that Sharon's already dancing too much for Europe+US.

His feelings are odd considering his dishonesty when called upon to back them up with concrete action.

	19-06-2002 19:33									#46
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It is becoming increasingly difficult to work with your government, Eli.

First, you ignore a whole side yet again.
Second, you better get used to it. Because the way things look now, the next goverment will be much more radical.
Third, we can say the same thing about you.

quote: Eli thinks that Sharon's already dancing too much for Europe+US. Sharon's been too soft on the Pals.

I always wanted to say it. KH : You are right!

	19-06-2002 19:36									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Eli First, you ignore a whole side yet again. Second, you better get used to it. Because the way things look now, the next goverment will be much more radical. Third, we can say the same thing about you.

You need them. They don't need you, despite what I've seen of your inflated sense of self-importance.

Eli, once you put the American yoke on, you can never take it off. They're sort of like the Mafia that way...

	19-06-2002 19:38									#48
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Perhaps Eli can tell us what Sharon's end game is. What does he want? Is he the fence guy?

	19-06-2002 19:41									#49
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse [O]nce you put the American yoke on, you can never take it off. They're sort of like the Mafia that way...

	19-06-2002 19:41									#50
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quote: Perhaps Eli can tell us what Sharon's end game is. What does he want? Is he the fence guy?

He doesn't seem that bright, and seems to be getting torn apart by tidal forces on him from within the coalition government. I think what he wants is to keep things together domestically right now.

	19-06-2002 19:42									#51
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News reports I read said IDF operations would be temporary - and apparently the IDF has already withdrawn from Nablus. I predict IDF leaves in a week if there's no further bombings in that time.

	19-06-2002 19:43									#52
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hi ,

this is still running in the street's , ...

now what would you do , when he is going to shoot , ....

have a nice day

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	19-06-2002 19:45									#53
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Perhaps panag can tell us what Sharon wants. What is his plan? Does he have one?

	19-06-2002 19:47									#54
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I don't know why George W. Bush is expected to solve the world's problems anyway. I guess if it wasn't for the oil and all, the world would probably let the Middle East go to hell if that is where they wanted to go. Then of course you have the nut in Iraq. But in any case it seems funny to me that the president of the United States is supposed to decide when or if a Palestinian state is supposed to come into existence.

This whole conflict is based on a supposed oppressor and the oppressed. Using these loose definitions we could call prisoners in most prisons oppresed. In order to be considered oppressed I think you should first of all be innocent.

	19-06-2002 19:47									#55
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hi ,

and what do you say of this guy , .....

does anyone have any idea how far some bullets fly , ....

nice when you are drinking a coffee , and the window is blown in pieces , ....

if nicer is to sit behind bulletproof windows , when the airco is out , ...

have a nice day

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	19-06-2002 19:50									#56
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"have a nice day"

How can I have a nice day now that I know a machine gun is pointed at me???

	19-06-2002 19:50									#57
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Perhaps panag can tell us what Sharon wants. What is his plan? Does he have one?

hi ,

to stop this , ....

have a nice day

	19-06-2002 19:51									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln "have a nice day" How can I have a nice day now that I know a machine gun is pointed at me???

hi ,

try to do like we do , "think positive" , ....

have a nice day

	19-06-2002 19:53									#59
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quote: panag 19-06-2002 10:50 This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here]

Are you being as frustratingly enigmatic as usual?

	19-06-2002 19:55									#60
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I thought that I was the only one with the Israeli ottok on an ignore list.