20-06-2002 01:54									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui If the Palestinians stop the suicide bombing then Sharon will just as easily roll over them. This time knowing there will be no reprisals. After all, it was terrorism in the first place that got the Palestinians some governance of the West Bank.

Sounds to me like you think terrorism and suicide bombing is justified.

	20-06-2002 02:00									#122
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In an air raid on Gaza the occupation forces murdered a two stories high house and two cars. 7 other cars and 3 motorcycles were injured.

The European Union condemned the attack, calling for the peace of the brave, while the window of opportunities lasts, to stop the cycle of violence.
Saeb Arekat, a senior Palestinian negotiator called for a UN investegation comitee to investigate the excessive use of force during the massacre in the Gaza Strip.

	20-06-2002 02:05									#123
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quote: Sounds to me like you think terrorism and suicide bombing is justified.

Sounds like you are right .

You don't seem to mind much about the American and Israeli terrorism that led to both of their independences? Why the big deal of Palestinian terrorism? Because it is sucide bombing?

	20-06-2002 02:12									#124
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( Israelis didn't kill civilians for shits and giggles. I don't know about you guys, though )

	20-06-2002 02:16									#125
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They killed civilians to make political points. Irgun, Hagganah, etc. You just think Hamas and PA are killing for shits and giggles? My, and you wonder why people say you don't understand Palestinians.

	20-06-2002 02:18									#126
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The deliberate slaughter of civilians is despicable, no matter who does it, Imran. I will NEVER accept that as a legitimate form of resistance. You, on the other hand, seem to think it's fine for people to strap a bomb to themselves and go looking for the biggest crowd of innocents they can find, simply because other people throughout history have done horrible things. That's piss-poor logic, and I'd wager you know it.

-Arrian

	20-06-2002 02:21									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Sounds to me like you think terrorism and suicide bombing is justified. Sounds like you are right . You don't seem to mind much about the American and Israeli terrorism that led to both of their independences? Why the big deal of Palestinian terrorism? Because it is sucide bombing?

hi ,

your words are really sick , ......
and by the way , next you are going to say that what your home country does and did was also "justified" , ..

you claim to be a religious muslim , yet you agree with the killing of a single human beeing , .....

every human that is killed , justified or not is one to many , ......

and if you dont think that its a big deal , well , come over and explain , ..... wanna bet , some people eat you alive , ....

why the big deal of pal terror , ....hey imran , sorrry , but terror is terror , and if you ont find it a big deal , try to imagine if it hit you , lets see if you still dont find it a big deal , .....

have a nice day

	20-06-2002 02:22									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You just think Hamas and PA are killing for shits and giggles?

Why not? It makes about as much sense as the "holy martyr theory," given the fact that these tactics obviously aren't helping thier cause with the people who matter.

	20-06-2002 02:26									#129
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quote: you claim to be a religious muslim

Since when?

quote: hey imran , sorrry , but terror is terror

So why don't you protest against Israeli terror? After all, terror is terror .

quote: Why not? It makes about as much sense as the "holy martyr theory," given the fact that these tactics obviously aren't helping thier cause with the people who matter.

Don't you get it? They don't care about the people 'who matter'. They want to destablize any peace, and realize they CAN by killing themselves and taking others along with them. That is their cause and they seem to be succeeding with that.


And here is a question... why is it that Palestinian terror is so unacceptable, yet Ehud Barak (IIRC) said if he was a Palestinian, he'd probably commit acts of terror. He realized that when you are in a hopeless situation, your life doesn't matter anymore. Hello! These people are killing themselves. Ever ask why? Because they have nothing to live for.

	20-06-2002 02:29									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui They want to destablize any peace, and realize they CAN by killing themselves and taking others along with them. That is their cause and they seem to be succeeding with that.

That sounds more like a shits and giggles motive than any serious political motive that you should be giving your respect to.

	20-06-2002 02:31									#131
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quote: That sounds more like a shits and giggles motive than any serious political motive that you should be giving your respect to.

Then you don't understand them at all.

I don't respect that idea (it's stupid), but at least I know why they do it. Unlike some people that just dismiss it, and then don't know why they do it, except calling them lesser people (some Israeli leaders, not you specifically).

	20-06-2002 02:32									#132
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This is boring. I've decided that I'm blaming capitalism for the ME debacle.

	20-06-2002 02:32									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: you claim to be a religious muslim Since when? quote: hey imran , sorrry , but terror is terror So why don't you protest against Israeli terror? After all, terror is terror . quote: Why not? It makes about as much sense as the "holy martyr theory," given the fact that these tactics obviously aren't helping thier cause with the people who matter. Don't you get it? They don't care about the people 'who matter'. They want to destablize any peace, and realize they CAN by killing themselves and taking others along with them. That is their cause and they seem to be succeeding with that.

hi ,

care to come over , .... then we shall talk , ....
and as your claims , its been a while ago , .... remember , ...

Israeli terror , sure , read slowly , a mapatz is about to fly true your window , ........

you really should get some background info , .... , oh yeah , there are some pics to , maybe you check them again , oh , and when an Israeli soldier , muslim , Jew , or christian , or even Druze , starts to commit terror acts , well , you shall be the first to get the pics , okay , ...

bye

	20-06-2002 02:33									#134
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I see a distinction between occupation (which I think is what you mean by Israeli terror) and suicide bombing. To me, the latter is far worse. The former is wrong, but DOES NOT justify the latter.

The Israelis are not deliberately slaughtering civilians. Though I disagree with the occupation and some of their tactics (and lack of overall strategy at this point), I do not buy into the argument that Israel is just as guilty of terrorism as the Palestinian extremist groups. I see the IDF as the lesser of the two evils.

-Arrian

	20-06-2002 02:35									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui why is it that Palestinian terror is so unacceptable,

Because I happen not to like the murder of innocent men, women, and children. But whatever floats your boat, Imran.

quote: These people are killing themselves. Ever ask why? Because they have nothing to live for.

Then why aren't you out there giving al Qaeda the same support, if suicide terrorism is enough to get it out of you?

	20-06-2002 02:38									#136
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Because I happen not to like the murder of innocent men, women, and children. But whatever floats your boat, Imran. quote: These people are killing themselves. Ever ask why? Because they have nothing to live for. Then why aren't you out there giving al Qaeda the same support, if suicide terrorism is enough to get it out of you?

hi ,

last line , some people stand up , other's like to talk from far away places , .....

have a nice day

	20-06-2002 02:38									#137
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quote: This is boring. I've decided that I'm blaming capitalism for the ME debacle.

Ah, the che way .

quote: I do not buy into the argument that Israel is just as guilty of terrorism as the Palestinian extremist groups.

How did you think they got their state? Israeli terrorist attacks caused the colonists (Britain) to wash their hands. Who do you think learned from this? Yes, the Palestinians.

I think that killing IDF soldiers is justified and suicide bombings WERE a brilliant strategy. These days it is just self-defeating. They should have ended it after 1993. Unfortunetly Rabin was killed (if he wasn't this whole thing never would have happened) and Netanyahu came into power, and the Pals realized they'd never have peace, so they went back to war.

Arrian, it's a war. Always been a war, and civilians are targetted in war. You can keep saying its wrong, but it has been done over and over and over again in history.

	20-06-2002 02:41									#138
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quote: Because I happen not to like the murder of innocent men, women, and children. But whatever floats your boat, Imran.

So you stand up and say Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Dresden are wrong? You say tar and feathering tax collectors in the revolution was wrong? I wonder if you would if you were there.

quote: Then why aren't you out there giving al Qaeda the same support, if suicide terrorism is enough to get it out of you?

Cause Al Queda's cause isn't sufficient for me.

Comparing the Palestinian bombing to the Al Queda bombing is like saying America's involvement in Vietnam and the Gulf War for for exactly the same reason. Sorry, but I don't buy it.

	20-06-2002 02:43									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: This is boring. I've decided that I'm blaming capitalism for the ME debacle. Ah, the che way . quote: I do not buy into the argument that Israel is just as guilty of terrorism as the Palestinian extremist groups. How did you think they got their state? Israeli terrorist attacks caused the colonists (Britain) to wash their hands. Who do you think learned from this? Yes, the Palestinians. I think that killing IDF soldiers is justified and suicide bombings WERE a brilliant strategy. These days it is just self-defeating. They should have ended it after 1993. Unfortunetly Rabin was killed (if he wasn't this whole thing never would have happened) and Netanyahu came into power, and the Pals realized they'd never have peace, so they went back to war. Arrian, it's a war. Always been a war, and civilians are targetted in war. You can keep saying its wrong, but it has been done over and over and over again in history.

hi ,

man you ought to get your history straight , ...
anyway , if you think that killing an other human is justified , well , see a doc , and while at it , ask yourself how you would feel when one kills your children , or parents , ....and then we shall talk , ...

and about the pals , if the outside interfering would have been stopped , and all them other fruitcakes where either in prison , or back to their country of origin , than there would be peace , ..

and the day that people stop to do what you are doing , talking like you do , then there shall be peace , ...

bye

	20-06-2002 02:48									#140
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Imran,

If this thing was an all-out war in which Israel targetted civilians, it would all be over pretty quickly for the Palestinians. If the Israelis were willing to act like Nazis, the Palestinians could not stop them. So to claim that "this is a war and civilians get targetted in wars" in order to justify suicide bombing is a bullshit thing to do. The fact is that ONE SIDE is deliberatly murdering civilians here. The other, while a looooooong way from perfect, at least tries to hit the combatants.

As for your historical examples, again, none of those justifies what the suicide bombers are doing. Nothing justifies that.

-Arrian

p.s. Hmmm, there is a word in here that should have been censored, but wasn't. Wonder what I did.

	20-06-2002 02:56									#141
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1) Strategic bombing during WWII was wrong and served no military purpose. The Palestinians should learn from its faliure. What's your point?

2) You seemed to see something particularly noble and worthwhile in the idea of preferential murder of a civilian population even when military targets are within reach. Hence, the al Qaeda comparison.

	20-06-2002 02:56									#142
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Bullshit isn't censored, only the end of it.

--

But it is a war. Israel doesn't want to persue it too much because then the US will take their funding away. That is the ONLY thing keeping Israel in line right now. If they didn't need US funding so badly, they'd already have rolled over Palestine.

And it might not be justified to you, but it is justified to the people sitting in Palestinian refugee camps, living in shitholes. So what are you going to do about that?

	20-06-2002 02:57									#143
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc 1) Strategic bombing during WWII was wrong and served no military purpose. The Palestinians should learn from its faliure. What's your point?

I'm surprised at this. I thought I had seen you post a defence of strategic bombing. I suppose I'm mixing you up with somebody else...

	20-06-2002 02:58									#144
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quote: 1) Strategic bombing during WWII was wrong and served no military purpose. The Palestinians should learn from its faliure. What's your point?

It was morally wrong? So you think Truman should have been tried for war crimes?

quote: 2) You seemed to see something particularly noble and worthwhile in the idea of preferential murder of a civilian population even when military targets are within reach. Hence, the al Qaeda comparison.

In order to throw off the yoke of colonialism, just about anything is justified, as history has shown us in Israel (when the Jews did it), Algeria, Vietnam, etc.

	20-06-2002 03:09									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Bullshit isn't censored, only the end of it. -- But it is a war. Israel doesn't want to persue it too much because then the US will take their funding away. That is the ONLY thing keeping Israel in line right now. If they didn't need US funding so badly, they'd already have rolled over Palestine. And it might not be justified to you, but it is justified to the people sitting in Palestinian refugee camps, living in shitholes. So what are you going to do about that?

hi ,

hey man , come over and see for yourself , .....
even the so called rfugee camps have better living standards then anywhere else in the netire midle east , ....
or do you want to see some pics of what the egyptians did in gaza , zip , nada nothing , you have to pay to get on the net , they not , you have to pay for your medical aid , they not , you have to pay for many things , they not , ..... but you did not know this , so no hard feelings ,
actually since you know so much about the whole region , why dont you say this , ...
oh yeah , where else in the middle east can woman vote , bump , oops , nowhere ,

so , come over and see for your self , ....

refugee camps , care to tell the real story behind that , ...
why dont you talk about the many people we took in from syria , jordan , iraq , iran , q8 , saudi , libanon , egypt , and they all have dual citizen ship , with even more benefits then a guy who comes like a tourist , ...
and now , some of these people , who we pay and give food , like we would do with any other refugee , including you when you ask , they spoil their own house , just the fact that we give them a peace of land , or even talk about it , imagine you start to ask in the states for your own little country , you know what shall happen , some redneck , patriot shall shoot you , ...
imagine we start to do it , ...
oh yeah , did you forget to tell that yasser killed this year more then 216 palestians , on the charge that they where working with Israel , ......

bye

	20-06-2002 03:17									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It was morally wrong?

It was militarially useless and quite possibly lengthened the war by stiffening the enemy's resolve to fight on and get revenge. Contemporary examples of this can be seen in the US response to 9/11 and in Israel. Again, I say that the Pals should learn from thier faliure and switch to another more successful tactic.

	20-06-2002 03:19									#147
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Panag :
The refugee camps are the source of the entire ME conflict. The conditions there are horrendous.

	20-06-2002 03:21									#148
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I didn't ask successful or not. I agree with you it isn't successful or not.

I'm asking did you think US actions were morally wrong?

quote: hey man , come over and see for yourself

Don't have too. Many, many people who have been over there that I've spoken too attested to how the Palestinians were treated like 2nd class. It is one of the main reasons I came to see terrorism as somewhat neccessary in the 80s (the 1st intifada).

quote: imagine you start to ask in the states for your own little country

People don't have too. We like to integrate everyone from every state. This is why we don't have a national religion. Israel is a Jewish state! How can you say that it can integrate people who aren't Jewish? You don't like Islamic states, so why should they like a Jewish state?

	20-06-2002 03:23									#149
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quote: The refugee camps are the source of the entire ME conflict. The conditions there are horrendous.

I'm agreeing with Eli . Of course we might have different ends in mind.

I'd like to see a Democratically elected Palestinian state (with fair elections guarenteed by the US), but the first step is the recognition of the state. Otherwise, Arafat can just keep it a dictatorship, and he has every right to, I think. Until it becomes a true state, how can he just give up power? He might be rendering Palestine leaderless, depending on what Israel decides to do!

	20-06-2002 03:23									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Panag : The refugee camps are the source of the entire ME conflict. The conditions there are horrendous.

hi ,

check for yourself , and imagine , how and why , ...

10 years ago most where better , ...

now they just build , illegal , without respecting the building code , and you know that that one is one of the best in the world , without thinking of safety , without thinking "disposal" , .....
and the PA does nothing , .....grrrrrr

been to one last week , man , they really build like fools , ....

there was this electricity line , high voltage , very high , running in the garden , 2 meters above ground on the poles , in the middle a child hanging , ....
anyway , ELi , you know what , how and why , ....

have a nice day