26-06-2002 14:21									#91
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quote: In what way does being Israeli make them guilty? Do you believe that they should have to leave the country that a lot of them have been born in solely because the Aplestinians don't like it? Are the Palestinian civilians therefore also 'guilty' for the suicide bombings, thereby meaning that Israel can kill them and be in the right?

I refer to 'what is your view on the bombing of hiroshima?'

	26-06-2002 14:25									#92
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Monk, fine with me. You might want to add the clarification that settler = invading soldier, unless you prefer it out of context.

Good suggestion -- makes it sound even better!

	26-06-2002 14:28									#93
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu I refer to 'what is your view on the bombing of hiroshima?'

what is your view on 9/11?

	26-06-2002 14:31									#94
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu What is your view on the bombing of Hiroshima?

The same as my view of the bombings of Nanking, Dresden, Hamburg, Coventry, London, Warsaw ad nauseum. Reprehensible, but once you are in a war of annihilation, predictable. At least the nuclear bombings achieved a goal proportional to the destruction visited upon innocents.

	26-06-2002 14:43									#95
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quote: what is your view on 9/11?

Reprehensible, just like Israels actions in palestine. How so?

	26-06-2002 14:50									#96
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quote: I refer to 'what is your view on the bombing of hiroshima?'

I believe it was a neccessary evil, considering that the U.S. and Japan had been fighting toth and nail for four years, and the Japanese had been warned that they would be annihilated if they didn't surrender, yet they still preferred death. Remember that the invasion expected to cost the lives of at least 1 million American soldiers and many more Japanese, so as is often stated, it most likely saved more lives than it took.

	26-06-2002 14:51									#97
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quote: The same as my view of the bombings of Nanking, Dresden, Hamburg, Coventry, London, Warsaw ad nauseum. Reprehensible, but once you are in a war of annihilation, predictable. At least the nuclear bombings achieved a goal proportional to the destruction visited upon innocents.

So you don't make a difference between defence and attack?

Is churchill a war criminal for carrying on the war against germany, when he could have ended it by capitulating?

My view can be summarized in two sentences:

I think every human has a right to defend what is his.

No one should be forced to sacrifice anything because someone else covets what is his.

That is it. The palestinians are defending their land. End of story. Israel can stop the conflict today if they wanted, but they continue the occupation. When an Israeli civilian is killed, Sharon is responsible. Just like Hitler was responsible for german civilians, not Churchill.

	26-06-2002 14:55									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Roland "Under what sort of conditions could the Palestinians ever put together a government capable of not only negotiating a peace agreement but implementing one?" Difficult but not impossible. If we develop the Barak proposal a bit to lift restrictions on sovereignty on a timetable if the terms are upheld as decided by an impartial side, it could work. Somehow you have to break the circle of failed negotiations leading to vilanece leading to failed negotiations....

It seems like peace has to be almost imposed, but who has the power and the will to do so? Perhaps the U.S. could, but no one wants to put themselves into the situation that Israel is in, having to try to maintain order against a large number of terrorists bent upon continuing the war.

quote: Originally posted by Roland "...especially when one looks around at the other Arab states in the region which are all corrupt Monarchies or Dictatorships" Lebanon.

You mean the new province of the pseudo-monarchy Syria? Seriously they gave it a good try, but they were no match for the antagonists of our current dilemna, and seemed willing enough to have at each other during the civil war period. The best Arab state in the area for many years, but brought low by their brothers, the Israelis, and their own internecine struggles.

quote: Originally posted by Roland "As for being able to make an agreement with Arafat, I agree completely that you can make an agreement with him. Unfortunately he won't keep that agreement." Either side will only keep agreements if they see it being in their interest. Make it Arafat's interest and he'll keep it.

Making deals with dictators is a shaky excercise at best. It's a much better bet to make a deal with a people rather than a leader, especially an old leader in a violent part of the world. Obviously any contract must contain consideration for both parties, but paying off Arafat under the table is money wasted IMO. We can't allow any possibility of someone later denying the validity of the agreement. Everything has to be on the table for all to see, and the whole thing has to be ratified by a pleibiscite (sp?) so that the nations involved have a stake in the process, and not merely the heads of state.

	26-06-2002 14:55									#99
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CyberGnu, I'm sorry, but what the hell does the Hiroshima bombing have to do with this? Secondly, let me tell you something:
Every single time someone quotes the Mossad/IDF (ie. An Israeli source) or somesuch, you immediately state that its a bunch of bull****. Well CyberGnu, I do believe that the Mossad tipped off the Americans that there was going to be a huge terror act (and look what happened on that day, September 11th...). CyberGnu, *you* are the one pulling **** out of your ass, as you so politely put it once.
I am not saying it's all the Pals fault, far from it. However, they are in a mostly self made mess. Let me ask you: did you ever LIVE in Israel/Palestine pre Intifada? People (including a majority of Palestinians) truly beleived there would be peace. There was a sense of hope in people about the ME situation. Then Arafat comes along and says no to the Camp David plan. Then when the Israeli side calls one of the chief Palestinians about another plan, the response was "The boss doesn't want peace."
Then the intifada occurs. BTW, do you remember Arafat condemning attacks at the beginning of the intifada? No? Oh, that's right, he BEGAN the intifada, and CALLED for martyrs to kill Israel. Then, when Israel destroys his 'security' and/or terrorist infrastructure, he says he can't do anything. Gee, Arafat, how about stopping the funding of suicide bombers and planners in YOUR OWN PARTY?. Then everything stuffs up. Then Sharon is elected. Then everything stuffs up again (due to Sharon as well).

A note: Sharon wants peace, however, he does not trust Arafat or the PA enough (understandably due to their behaviour) to negotiate (especially since PA owned media regularly call for the destruction of Israel).

A note for the unknowing: the words "an end to the occupation" does not mean an end to occupation of Gaza and West Bank (notice how they never state these two territories, only "an end to occupation). It means an end to Israel's occupation of Israel, and tehrefore an end to Israel.

Edit: sorry if this was OT a bit, here is something On topic.
The USA wants the PA to be something it cannot. A responsible governemnt interested in the people, and not themselves.

Last edited by Zevico on 26-06-2002 at 15:00

	26-06-2002 15:42									#100
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"It seems like peace has to be almost imposed, but who has the power and the will to do so? Perhaps the U.S. could..."

As the US is giving a couple billion $ every year to Israel, it has more leverage than the EU there. But that's about it.

"... but no one wants to put themselves into the situation that Israel is in, having to try to maintain order against a large number of terrorists bent upon continuing the war."

I could imagine an international border presence once the settlements beyond that border are evacuated. The real security nightmare are those scattered settlements.

"You mean the new province of the pseudo-monarchy Syria?"

Protectorate. Internally they are relatively autonomous.

"We can't allow any possibility of someone later denying the validity of the agreement."

You can never rule that out. But you can draw the consequences, like "no Israeli retreat from Jordan valley".

	26-06-2002 16:05									#101
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu So you don't make a difference between defence and attack? Is churchill a war criminal for carrying on the war against germany, when he could have ended it by capitulating?

If you will note my words above, I am only talking about military operations aimed at killing as many civilians as possible, not the question of whether war is moral or not. The allies only two defenses for purposefully targeting so many civilians during the war are:

1) The Germans and Japanese both initiated the slaughter of civilians in this manner, and states IMO have a right to adopt the means of their enemies lest the enemy gains an unfair advantage through their willingness to ignore humanitarian or legal concerns. It's nice to have the excess power to be able to not engage in this sort of MAD type of thinking, but it's also rare.

2) The Allies thought that the bombing campaign was an effective tool to defeat the Axis, and therefore constituted a lesser evil than letting the war drag on and perhaps even allowing an Axis victory. Since the end of that war both the effectiveness of the bombing campaign as an economic weapon and any possibility of an Axis victory have been put into some doubt.

Thus I understand why the bombings happened and feel that they were legally justified, but I hope that we never feel it necessary to do so again, and I pray that we never feel so much hatred or contempt for other people that we feel justified in initiating such a mass atrocity ourselves.

quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu My view can be summarized in two sentences: I think every human has a right to defend what is his. No one should be forced to sacrifice anything because someone else covets what is his.

Welcome to the Libertarian party!

	26-06-2002 16:24									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Roland "It seems like peace has to be almost imposed, but who has the power and the will to do so? Perhaps the U.S. could..." As the US is giving a couple billion $ every year to Israel, it has more leverage than the EU there. But that's about it.

A couple of billion dollars just doesn't buy what it used to. Hell, it doesn't even buy what it did last week.

quote: Originally posted by Roland "... but no one wants to put themselves into the situation that Israel is in, having to try to maintain order against a large number of terrorists bent upon continuing the war." I could imagine an international border presence once the settlements beyond that border are evacuated. The real security nightmare are those scattered settlements.

I think the settlements will be surrendered in short order once the Israelis are convinced that they are going to be traded for a real peace.

quote: Originally posted by Roland "You mean the new province of the pseudo-monarchy Syria?" Protectorate. Internally they are relatively autonomous.

Hopefully "Peepers" Assad is a more reasonable man than his father. Syria has been slowly withdrawing recently, so there is some room for hope. Still there is not only the Syrian Army to worry about, but Hezballah as well, and that is a serious complication.

quote: Originally posted by Roland "We can't allow any possibility of someone later denying the validity of the agreement." You can never rule that out. But you can draw the consequences, like "no Israeli retreat from Jordan valley".

I prefer to make a much bigger deal of the peace deal being a popular one rather than one imposed by the weak leader Arafat. I think it's much more viable than a mere threat of resumption of the conflict. It might be very tempting for the more radical elements to make an agreement which forces the Israelis into a much weaker position geographically and then reneg on the agreement at a time of their own choosing.

I find it amusing that some people here are so adamantly against a popular government for the Palestinians. They seem to share my fairly low opinion of the political proclivities of the Palestinian people, but not my willingness to give them a chance to either prove themselves or grow from the experience. For my part I would rather that a popularly elected government run by Hamas than a dictatorship run by Arafat, because a popular and more effective government is capable of leading rather than merely sniffing the wind, and IMO it's going to take leadership on both sides to end the conflict. I am much more confident that the Israelis will find the right man when the time comes under the current circumstances. The Palestinians need some time to develop their own effectual government whatever it's eventual type might be.

	26-06-2002 16:40									#103
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"I think the settlements will be surrendered in short order once the Israelis are convinced that they are going to be traded for a real peace."

Which means the Israeli right has an interest in making real peace look unlikely.

"I prefer to make a much bigger deal of the peace deal being a popular one rather than one imposed by the weak leader Arafat."

I don't think that makes much difference.

"For my part I would rather that a popularly elected government run by Hamas than a dictatorship run by Arafat...."

Arafat runs an elected dictatorship, does he not ?

Btw, has "rather" turned into a verb ? I've seen such a phrase several times now, and always look for a verb.

"The Palestinians need some time to develop their own effectual government whatever it's eventual type might be."

Not under the current circumstances. They also need to get to develop their state alongside with that.

	26-06-2002 17:13									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Btw, has "rather" turned into a verb ? I've seen such a phrase several times now, and always look for a verb.

It is used in much the same way as prefer, though it is only be used to show a preference for an action (modifying a verb).

Thus:

"I'd rather walk, thank you."

"I prefer blue."

"I'd prefer to walk, thank you."

But not - I rather blue. - Though you could say, "I'd rather have a blue one."

	26-06-2002 17:29									#105
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You wrote "I would rather that..." - so that is still not accepted standard, or is it ?

	26-06-2002 17:30									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Hopefully "Peepers" Assad is a more reasonable man than his father. Syria has been slowly withdrawing recently, so there is some room for hope. Still there is not only the Syrian Army to worry about, but Hezballah as well, and that is a serious complication.

Syria slowly withdraws it's troops to the Bekaa Valley only because it's easier to defend.
The flow of money and weapons to the Hizballah is increasing. Many missiles were transported on the Beirut-Damascus road in the last couple years.
All this makes me believe that Assad Jr. is an unexperienced leader who wants to show the Arab world that he's as strong as his father was.

The Hizballah is trying to slowly provoke Israel and a month or two ago only American intervention managed to stop an Israeli offensive against Syria.

	26-06-2002 17:49									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Roland You wrote "I would rather that..." - so that is still not accepted standard, or is it ?

There was an implied verb (to be) in that sentence, though you are correct that I should have written it out for the sentence to be correct.

"For my part I would rather that a popularly elected government (be) run by Hamas...."

	26-06-2002 18:05									#108
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quote: We might want to consider economic sanctions on Arafat if he runs for re-election and wins.

If the US decides who should win the elections, isn't that the oposite of free and democratic elections?

C'mon Ned, I know you can do better.

	26-06-2002 18:08									#109
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You know.... Hitler got elected...

	26-06-2002 18:13									#110
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No he didn't. He lost the Presidential elections, and though he did become Chancelor he didn't get full power until after the Reichstag burning.

	26-06-2002 18:24									#111
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You know ... Chirac get elected too ...

	26-06-2002 19:40									#112
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu And a deal is a deal. If the palestinians accept a peace plan that gives them a viable state, I think they will have to live with the deal and accept Israel.

But you think until such a deal is reached that all Israeli citizens (or only jewish ones?) in all of Palestine/Israel (or just in westbank/gaza ?) are "settlers" and therefore legitimate targets for any kind of attack ?

	26-06-2002 19:43									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Roland But you think until such a deal is reached that all Israeli citizens (or only jewish ones?) in all of Palestine/Israel (or just in westbank/gaza ?) are "settlers" and therefore legitimate targets for any kind of attack ?

The distinction between military and civilian targets is completely lost on him. He's said, in the past, that every Israeli man, woman, and child is a valid target until peace is achieved.

	26-06-2002 20:11									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus If the US decides who should win the elections, isn't that the oposite of free and democratic elections? C'mon Ned, I know you can do better.

the US decided who would run the countries of Japan and Germany after WW2 for a few years

I think that this is what neexds to happen here also

Jon Miller

	26-06-2002 20:31									#115
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"If the US decides who should win the elections, isn't that the oposite of free and democratic elections?"

Yes, if there were a direct link. In this case it would be indirect. We make it worth the Palestinians' while to choose the leaders that we would like them to choose. Also we fund the good guys to help get out their message.

In Yugoslavia, the package deal was about $2 billion all told, which seems like a fair price all around. But we do have some opposing bidders in this case, and this is a high priority to the US, even though Yugoslavia has 3x the population of Palestine. All told, I wouldn't be surprised to see a figure much higher than Yugoslavia.

	26-06-2002 20:49									#116
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"In Yugoslavia, the package deal was about $2 billion all told, which seems like a fair price all around."

That idea is so... american.

	26-06-2002 21:52									#117
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Well, we have a deal that everybody wants to make, except Hamas, Iran and Iraq. Syria's probably on the fence. Israel, ex-Sharon, is ready to deal.

It just takes some grease to help accentuate what is in everybody's interest. We need to close this deal.

No need to be coy about the transaction...

	26-06-2002 22:39									#118
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Too much to respond to in detail.

I see no moral difference between bombing Hiroshima and bombing Tel Aviv. Both are aimed at ending unwarranted aggression, to end the suffering caused by Japans/Israels actions. The people responsible for the civilian deaths caused by the bombings are Hirohito and Sharon (in the simplified sense that they represent their goverments).

Does that answer your question, Roland?

I also think the palestinian spokesman Said made a good summary of the palestinian situation: give us enough tanks and gunships and we will fight this war in ways acceptable to the west.

This is not a war between equal states. It is an occupied nation resisting their occupier.

	26-06-2002 22:50									#119
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And there are those of us who find the METHOD of resistance to be unacceptable. Dredging up historical analogies doesn't make the deliberate targetting of civilians morally acceptable. Israeli occupation does not make the deliberate targetting of civilians morally acceptable. The disparity in power between the Israelis and Palestinians does not make the deliberate targetting of civilians morally acceptable....

are you ready for the bombshell (no pun intended)?

NOTHING MAKES THE INTENTIONAL TARGETTING OF CIVILIANS MORALLY ACCEPTABLE.

The Palestinians had my sympathy until they started slaughtering innocent people. I still have sympathy for those who suffer from the occupation, but I no longer favor their side. Their cause may be just, but the methods of the various extremist groups who claim to represent them are unacceptable.

-Arrian

	26-06-2002 22:57									#120
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I would have some respect for the Palestinians if they only went after military targets. But they don't, so I don't.