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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:20
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Cyber,
You're full of it.
The Israelis are not deliberately murdering civilians. If that was their intent, it would all be over pretty quickly. You like to allege that the deaths of Palestinian civilians were deliberate acts by Israel only because you think it justifies the suicide bombing.
I love how you demand proof of others, and then turn around and make baseless allegations when it suits you.
quote:
So Israel should be allowed to kill palestinian civilians (ohh, it was a mistake, soo very sorry, I promise not to do it again in the next five minutes or so), but the palestinians are not allowed to defend themselves?
WW2 wasn't won by men in uniform. It was won by industrial capacity.
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Oh, I see, the suicide bombers are "defending" the Palestinians by blowing up factories, is that it? Well, I suppose a pizzaria is a factory that makes pizza...
-Arrian
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ranskaldan
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Beijing ~ Singapore ~ Toronto ~ All hail to the new Rome
Sep 2001
time: 00:20
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Here's my two cents:
Fist of all: I don't think suicide bombings are justifiable, especially not against civilians. In the same way, I don't think what happened in Dresden or Hiroshima were justified.
However, I support the end of the Palestinian actions, that is, to achieve liberation. Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip is not justifiable by any moral standard. It is no more justifiable than the German occupation of Poland from 1939 to 1945.
Finally, I'm not trying to justify suicide bombings here, but has anyone even considered why suicide bombings are taking place? No, Palestinians aren't doing it for the heck of it. There is a root cause to it, one that consists mainly of pain, suffering, and oppression. And Israel probably shouldn't be contributing to this problem if they want any chance of achieving peace.
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ranskaldan
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Beijing ~ Singapore ~ Toronto ~ All hail to the new Rome
Sep 2001
time: 00:20
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Frankly, it's very hard to argue to Israeli soldiers are deliberately killing civilians.
In general, Israeli armed forces shoot only at armed militants, or people whom they think are armed militants, or buildings containing armed militants, or buildings thought to contain armed militants.
(What's the difference between armed militants and civilians? In occupied societies, there's often little difference.)
As for deliberate acts against civilians, only eviction, humiliation, and oppression is actually confirmable. Deliberate massacres of unarmed civilians are not. It's impossible to know whether it happened in Jenin or not.
Finally, it is arguable that Israel is responsible for infrastructure building in Palestinian territories. In addition, assimilated Arabs (i.e. Israeli Arabs) are generally accepted into mainstream Israeli society.
Thus, it's hard to compare the Israeli occupation of Palestine to Hitler or even Milosevic. Comparing it to, say, the American involvement in Vietnam, the British colonization of India, or the (initial) Chinese occupation of Tibet, is a lot closer to reality.
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
What Bush said makes a lot of sense. I have little faith that either of the current leaders can move toward peace. It looks to me like Bush thinks this as well, with Arafat going this year and Sharon going in the next couple of years. It's sort a mid-term bet.
Arafat isn't going to last much longer anyway. What is he, 80 years old? Sharon's an old fart too. |
Arafat born 1929. 73 year old sometime this year.
Sharon had to be in his 60s.
These two hate each other and nothing will happen alone as these two are in power.
There is really only one problem over there. Each wants his country to have a border that goes to Leb. and Syria in the north, Jordan on the east and Egypt in the south and the Med. in the west.
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CyberGnu
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of the Virtual Serengeti
Apr 1999
time: 05:20
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quote:
Explain it to me, oh intelligent one.
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I've done that, repeatedly.... Go back and read again.
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Insulting you? Me? Never!
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Well, then, I'll remind you about that next time there is talking about extracting items from lower orifices. 
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Source?
Either prove that it is lying, or get the f*ck out of my threads and quit spamming them.
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*sigh*
again, proving a negative. Look, most of the stuff you post is sourced from israeli media ir intelligence. They in turn usually don't source at all. I could theoretically interview every palestinian alive , and even then I can't prove that I missed someone, or maybe that he died before I got to him, or that one of them lied to me but told the truth to Israeli media etc.
You see?
The correct assumption is to believe it is not true until it is verified by a trustworthy source, such as a NYT journalist.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:20
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quote:
Have they knowingly attacked a kindergarten or a school? (take note of the word knowingly). And if so, was it part of a policy or an isolated incident? You are fond of pointing out that one bad apple doesn't represent every one else... |
Let me remind you of several incidents
1. A bomb is put next to school. Explodes 10 minutes before it the end of school, luckily.
2. A small bomb in a milk carton placed near a kindergarten (iirc)
3. Two israeli teens are murdered while taking a walk in the territories.
4. Several teens in a school in the territories, playing basketball are all gunned down.
5. Teen is lured over the internet to meet with a palestinian woman and then slaughtered
6. Suicide bomb at a disco for young (below 18) teens.
7. Suicide bomber approaches a bus stop in which only children are standing. Begins talking to them, gathering them around, explodes.
8. Suicide bombers which get on buses around 7, when children go to school, and over 50% of people on the bus are children.
9. Terrorist enters civilian house, guns down mother. guns down naked little girl which walks out of bathroom.
10. Terrorist enters school, guns down children in dorms.
11. Terrorist enters civilian house, shoots everyone in thier beds, including children.
I'm sure there have been lots of incidents I forgot.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:20
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quote:
Well, then, I'll remind you about that next time there is talking about extracting items from lower orifices. |
Aaaawwww
Little gnu is offended by expressions such as 'ass'.
Well, to yee of little knowledge of english:
"talk out of ones ass" = "speak bullshit" = "talking without having the slightest idea or basis of his words"
It's a standard english expression. But I understand than english is a difficult language, and you being of the smart elite are probably not acquainted with slang.
quote:
Look, most of the stuff you post is sourced from israeli media ir intelligence. They in turn usually don't source at all. I could theoretically interview every palestinian alive , and even then I can't prove that I missed someone, or maybe that he died before I got to him, or that one of them lied to me but told the truth to Israeli media etc. |
1. I doubt that even a third of what I post here is intelligence.
2. It being intelligence, you have a full right to take it with a grain of salt.
3. If an Israeli newspaper quotes a palestinian civilian or politician, you should trust it, unless you have an example of Israeli newspapers forging evidence.
4. You claims about not being able to substatiate said quotes applies equally to NYT and so on. And I do no accept the claim that NYT is "well known" etc, since just a month ago I read about a journalist in some major american newspaper (NYT or WT or WP) fabricating articles out of his arse. I see no difference between the liability of NYT and Haaretz or Jerusalem Post.
However, you are now minimizing your claims.
You have also claimed that Israeli newspapers bring quotes from arab speaking newspapers, which are obviously false, or misrepresented.
You must have an actual example of false quotes if you think so, or else, your opinion is unfounded and therefore I regard it as false.
Infact, I have also recently provided you with an Arabic -> English translator, which you could use to translate arabic newpapers and prove once and for all, that Israeli newspapers have a habbit of lying.
You can not automatically assume that the Israeli media is untrustworthy, just because you think so. You have to have some basis for it.
Other wise, you are infact inventing those claims, based on your prejudices.
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26-06-2002 23:44
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Are you a settler at heart, Siro?
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