28-06-2002 08:22									#31
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quote: Just think about it logically.

Ah, logic is your first (and most fatal) flaw. You've got to leave your logic at the door when it comes to metaphysics.

	28-06-2002 08:22									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller or I should say, existence ends (not that hell is an end of existence) Jon Miller

I was talking to Dino. I was refering to the most widely used definition of hell. I don't believe in hell, but I find the concept interesting.

	28-06-2002 08:22									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller BUt see all have sinned and deserve death. The atheist and the christian alike. There is no 'good' atheist just as there is no 'good' christian. And I think that a great number of those who call themselves christians will not go to heaven, but I would not call them christians. Christianity is not about deeds, it is about faith. Jon Miller

A man can be good in his life and another one can be bad.

Sure both may have commited some sins but we are talking about a "saint" versus a bastard.

Surely you can understand the difference.

Why should a good person not be awarded for his compasione and virtuous life simply because he did not believe in the existance of God?

	28-06-2002 08:24									#34
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But he was a bad person. Sure, he might have done a few deeds which were good, but how does that change the majority of his actions and thoughts??

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 08:24									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Sava ... its hard to be intellegent and objective when you get religion jammed down your throat at an early age. THATS WHY YOU DON'T PUSH RELIGION ON KIDS AT PUBLIC SCHOOLS, YOU KEEP IT OUT OF GOVERNMENT, AND YOU LET PEOPLE MAKE THEIR OWN DECISIONS.

So, you obviously had religion jammed down your throat at an early age.

	28-06-2002 08:26									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Just think about it logically. Prehistoric humans living 20,000 years BC had no knowledge of Jesus. Are they all in hell because they didn't accept him as their savior? What about deaf-mutes? Is Helen Keller in hell because she couldn't be taught about Jesus? And what about the spiritual Buddhists who are good to all living things... the ones who DON'T WORSHIP A SYSTEM OF GREED!!! I bet the Enron execs and Worldcom crooks go to church.... do they get into heaven? According to some protestants, if they repent right before they die, they do. No, I'm sorry.... God, or whatever power awaits us in death will judge us by our morals and who we are... NOT by whether or not we believed in some book that some evil immoral people wrote 2000 years ago to control the masses.

Have you ever read the Bible??

Based on reading it I think it is obvious that many pre-Jesus were redeemed by him.

THerefore I think that it is obvious that a knowledge of Jesus is not required.

But it helps.

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 08:27									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller But he was a bad person. Sure, he might have done a few deeds which were good, but how does that change the majority of his actions and thoughts?? Jon Miller

A good person who helps and loves and sacrifies himself for his fellow men but does not believe in God is a good person. Wouldn't you agree with that?

Another peson who lives his life egotistically and only cares about himself but says he believes in God (and actually does) is a bad person.

Why shouldn't the good person be rewarded for leading a virtuous life and helping his fellow men?

Simply because he did not believe in God?

	28-06-2002 08:29									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Sava If God spoke to us in a loud booming voice, or had some method of direct communication, I would believe all this crap that these sicko zealots try to jam down my throat. God HAS NOT SPOKEN TO MAN BECAUSE HE IS BEYOND THIS WORLD... ANYONE WHO SAYS OTHERWISE IS EITHER GULLIBLE, STUPID, OR LYING.... You can't blame them though... its hard to be intellegent and objective when you get religion jammed down your throat at an early age. THATS WHY YOU DON'T PUSH RELIGION ON KIDS AT PUBLIC SCHOOLS, YOU KEEP IT OUT OF GOVERNMENT, AND YOU LET PEOPLE MAKE THEIR OWN DECISIONS.

People can still make their own decisions. I'm being raised a Catholic, but I've turned out Buddhist.

	28-06-2002 08:29									#39
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Herr, lehre doch mich,
daß ein Ende mit mir haben muß,
und mein Leben ein Ziel hat
und ich davon muß.

	28-06-2002 08:30									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Herr, lehre doch mich, daß ein Ende mit mir haben muß, und mein Leben ein Ziel hat und ich davon muß.

Are you speaking in Tongues? or German?

	28-06-2002 08:32									#41
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German.

From Ein Deutsches Requiem, Brahms' choral masterpiece.

	28-06-2002 08:32									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski So, you obviously had religion jammed down your throat at an early age.

Yes, fortunately I was exposed to many religions as a child. I was able to step away from the lies and look at religion as a phenomenom. I looked at them all and combined them with my knowledge with the world and said, "Hey wait a minute, this isn't right..."

I believe there is a God/higher power out there, waiting for us when we die, why? I don't know... because I don't think that my awareness and sentience will cease to exist when I die. That's just my opinion. I don't believe in it 100%. It is possible that death will just be non-existence; oblivion.

But no intellegent, rational person can believe in any religion as fact. The stories in religion are myth and parable. Jesus was not the son of God in the sense that he was any different than the 100 or so other billion people that have ever lived. He did not have magical powers, he didn't walk on water, nor could he shoot fire out of his ass. Moses didn't part the Red Sea, though I believe that he did exist and did lead the Hebrews from Egypt.

The point is, if there is an active conscious being watching over us, who created us in his own image, than he wants us to use our senses and ability to learn and to rationalize to come up with our own definition and purpose of existence. If he wanted us to believe in the Bible literally, there would be burning bushes everywhere telling us what to do. The fact is, if this being exists, he gave us logic and intellegence to learn, and to be skeptical about the lies and deceptions of others.

	28-06-2002 08:33									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller Christianity is not about deeds, it is about faith.

Exactly, Christianity is about faith, but it's about something else, too: Love. Jesus said that the greatest commandment is to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself." I think that says a lot about how to be a "good" Christian.

But the fact of the matter is, I really don't believe that there is such a such thing as a "good person." There is no accurate definition for this. But there is a clear definition for what is sin and sin what is not sin. The point I'm trying to get at is, God loves all his children, and he does not hate sinners, but he does hate the sin.

	28-06-2002 08:34									#44
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Excuse me, Jon Miller... Christians, at least in America, believe that the New Testament overrides the Old. I tend to believe more of the concepts and morals in the Old Testament because other scriptures share much of the same themes. The New Testament was written by religious fanatics who believed that Jesus was a magical being who was the incarnate of the son of God.

	28-06-2002 08:35									#45
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God would hate what I did tonight, woooo!

	28-06-2002 08:35									#46
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Cloud9 please re-read my previous post.

	28-06-2002 08:36									#47
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SAVA : I'm sure glad you didn't take that the way, it COULD have been meant.

	28-06-2002 08:38									#48
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 A good person who helps and loves and sacrifies himself for his fellow men but does not believe in God is a good person. Wouldn't you agree with that? Another peson who lives his life egotistically and only cares about himself but says he believes in God (and actually does) is a bad person. Why shouldn't the good person be rewarded for leading a virtuous life and helping his fellow men? Simply because he did not believe in God?

But there is no such good person. Since it cannot occur you cannot use it as an point.

And following God takes more than just beleiving him.

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 08:39									#49
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 A good person who helps and loves and sacrifies himself for his fellow men but does not believe in God is a good person. Wouldn't you agree with that? Another peson who lives his life egotistically and only cares about himself but says he believes in God (and actually does) is a bad person. Why shouldn't the good person be rewarded for leading a virtuous life and helping his fellow men? Simply because he did not believe in God?

It doesn't matter. The Bible says that both faith and love are the key to one's salvation.

	28-06-2002 08:41									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Yes, fortunately I was exposed to many religions as a child. I was able to step away from the lies and look at religion as a phenomenom. I looked at them all and combined them with my knowledge with the world and said, "Hey wait a minute, this isn't right..." I believe there is a God/higher power out there, waiting for us when we die, why? I don't know... because I don't think that my awareness and sentience will cease to exist when I die. That's just my opinion. I don't believe in it 100%. It is possible that death will just be non-existence; oblivion. But no intellegent, rational person can believe in any religion as fact. The stories in religion are myth and parable. Jesus was not the son of God in the sense that he was any different than the 100 or so other billion people that have ever lived. He did not have magical powers, he didn't walk on water, nor could he shoot fire out of his ass. Moses didn't part the Red Sea, though I believe that he did exist and did lead the Hebrews from Egypt. The point is, if there is an active conscious being watching over us, who created us in his own image, than he wants us to use our senses and ability to learn and to rationalize to come up with our own definition and purpose of existence. If he wanted us to believe in the Bible literally, there would be burning bushes everywhere telling us what to do. The fact is, if this being exists, he gave us logic and intellegence to learn, and to be skeptical about the lies and deceptions of others.

So you are saying that such a being could not act??

That the being could not act in such a way in the past that the primitives of the time thought that it was something like a burning bush which was not burning.

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 08:41									#51
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Being a "good person" is one thing, and having faith is another, but neither one nor the other will give one their salvation. It takes both.

	28-06-2002 08:42									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 It doesn't matter. The Bible says that both faith and love are the key to one's salvation.

I agree, read Paul.

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 08:43									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 It doesn't matter. The Bible says that both faith and love are the key to one's salvation.

Not all forms of Christianity believes everything is exactly correct, even the stuff that Jesus supposedly said.

	28-06-2002 08:44									#54
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That's the whole thing... the idea of salvation is false. What if one is happy on Earth? Then one wouldn't need saving. And what about the people who are products of their environments? They make poor decisions because they don't know any better. If ignorance is a ticket to hell, all of Christianity (Islam, Judaism, etc, etc) is doomed!

	28-06-2002 08:44									#55
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Yeah

but I wonder how those are christians

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 08:47									#56
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Either way you end up in a coffin underground with bugs eating away at your skin, or you get thrown in a giant oven.

Atheist, Christian, whatever, you all end up in the same place.

	28-06-2002 08:47									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller . . .but I wonder how those are christians

I wonder how those are loving Christians.

	28-06-2002 08:48									#58
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Sava.
Nobody can prove there is a God... and nobody can prove there isn't a God. So it's just a matter of opinion, feelings, or faith. So a good christian or any religious person could call you an ignorant fool for not believeing

It's all a matter of perspective

	28-06-2002 08:48									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Either way you end up in a coffin underground with bugs eating away at your skin, or you get thrown in a giant oven. Atheist, Christian, whatever, you all end up in the same place.

Our bodies will, but our spirts won't. They'll end up in either heaven or hell.

	28-06-2002 08:48									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Either way you end up in a coffin underground with bugs eating away at your skin, or you get thrown in a giant oven. Atheist, Christian, whatever, you all end up in the same place.

EXACTLY.... JESUS H CHRIST... THE MOST INTELLEGENT THING EVER!!!

(I'm not being sarcastic)

Everyone dies. Belief in a certain religion doesn't guarantee you a better eternity than the poor bloke who believed in the tooth fairy.