28-06-2002 09:15									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 I haven't met him, but I will someday. I do KNOW him, however.

You're starting to sound a lot like the Heaven's Gate people, and it's almost scary.

But then I realized that most people in America think like you.

And at that point I'm scrambling to acquire a bunker in the middle of nowhere.

	28-06-2002 09:16									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Now if only I had a Bible with an index that could point me to some scriptures where it talks about disabilities. Anyone up for it?

Some religions don't allow for disabilities as a way out though

	28-06-2002 09:16									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Asher But then I realized that most people in America think like you.

Another baseless assumption on your part. Most people in America do not think like that... THANK GOD

	28-06-2002 09:16									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse There is a huge amount of evidence he existed, including my reports by Romans around that time. There just isn't reliable evidence that he did anything mericulous.

Makes me wonder if, thousands of years for now after the apocalypse, people will dig up artifacts and scriptures talking about an almighty leader of the people, George W. Bush, who really did exist. He's the leader, or God if you will, and people will worship him for thousands of years. He did exist!

	28-06-2002 09:17									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Another baseless assumption on your part. Most people in America do not think like that... THANK GOD

Saw a poll on CNN today, and 52% of Americans polled have a problem with an Atheist President.

That compares to 48% having a problem with a homosexual president, and 8% having a problem with a female president. 5% had a problem with a black president.

	28-06-2002 09:18									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse Just because someone loved something in the past does not make up for not be able to love in the present. I myself have not loved anything or anyone for years. I want to, but I am unable to for reasons beyond my control.

I do not love easily and for a long time thought I did not love at all and was incapable of it. How do you know that you do not love and are incapable of it. When I thought so I spent a large number of months testing and finding if there was anyway in which I could be said to love (you might need to broden you definitions). After a long time I determined that there was something there.

I now know that I am capable of it but would still not say that I am a very loving person.

I would suggest trying to love and it will grow on you (and I need to practise what I preach).

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 09:19									#127
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BTW this thread is moving so fast that I am not responding to everyone

if I do not respond to you and you wish me to PM me and I will respond at a later date

Jon Milller

	28-06-2002 09:19									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller But is there any evidence that he did not exist?? And there is evidence of his existence, the Bible. Jon Miller

The most important piece of evidence of God's existence is how perfect the world is. Not perfect in the sense that everything is just right, but perfect in the sense that it couldn't have just happened. Our bodies, for instance, are so complex, that the odds of them just evolving over a long period time is like 1 in centillion (680 zeros). Some people just don't understand how complex the world, or should I say the universe, really is.

	28-06-2002 09:20									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse There is a huge amount of evidence he existed, including my reports by Romans around that time. There just isn't reliable evidence that he did anything mericulous.

Cite a source?

The only evidence I am aware of is New Testament scripture, all of which was written at least 30 years after his death or more. There is, to the best of my knowledge, nothing contemporary to his life that supports he existed. There were no Roman records of his crucifixion, which is very odd, considering how good Roman record-keeping was on such matters.

	28-06-2002 09:20									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse There is a huge amount of evidence he existed, including many reports by Romans around that time. There just isn't reliable evidence that he did anything mericulous.

Of course not. In our scientific age that is a point of faith.

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 09:21									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Makes me wonder if, thousands of years for now after the apocalypse, people will dig up artifacts and scriptures talking about an almighty leader of the people, George W. Bush, who really did exist. He's the leader, or God if you will, and people will worship him for thousands of years. He did exist!

After the Apocalypse? I'll always be around.

Anyay, that should be "many reports," I mispelled. "My reports" sounds like I forged them. No one must no about that.

	28-06-2002 09:22									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Saw a poll on CNN today, and 52% of Americans polled have a problem with an Atheist President.

But that doesn't prove that "most" Americans believe like he does It just proves that a small majority of Americans would have a problem with a president that doesn't believe in god...

	28-06-2002 09:22									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 The most important piece of evidence of God's existence is how perfect the world is.

Somebody needs to add this to the random quotations we get after posting. Truly a classic.

quote: Not perfect in the sense that everything is just right, but perfect in the sense that it couldn't have just happened. Our bodies, for instance, are so complex, that the odds of them just evolving over a long period time is like 1 in centillion (680 zeros). Some people just don't understand how complex the world, or should I say the universe, really is.

You would honestly believe it's even MORE likely to have the creation of a God creature which has the CAPACITY to create worlds?

That's such a lame short-sighted way of viewing everything. It doesn't even make sense once you look at the whole scope of it, not just the stuff you want to look at...

	28-06-2002 09:22									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Cite a source? The only evidence I am aware of is New Testament scripture, all of which was written at least 30 years after his death or more. There is, to the best of my knowledge, nothing contemporary to his life that supports he existed. There were no Roman records of his crucifixion, which is very odd, considering how good Roman record-keeping was on such matters.

30 years afterwards is amazingly early to make up someone totally ficticious who did all the things that Jesus was described as doing.

I think it is safe to say (from a sceintific standing) that there is a basis for the stories of Christ (I would agree that there is no sceintific evidence for His miracles though)

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 09:24									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Somebody needs to add this to the random quotations we get after posting. Truly a classic. You would honestly believe it's even MORE likely to have the creation of a God creature which has the CAPACITY to create worlds? That's such a lame short-sighted way of viewing everything. It doesn't even make sense once you look at the whole scope of it, not just the stuff you want to look at...

And which do you want to believe, Asher? It all depends on your perspective.

	28-06-2002 09:24									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 The most important piece of evidence of God's existence is how perfect the world is. Not perfect in the sense that everything is just right, but perfect in the sense that it couldn't have just happened. Our bodies, for instance, are so complex, that the odds of them just evolving over a long period time is like 1 in centillion (680 zeros). Some people just don't understand how complex the world, or should I say the universe, really is.

The human body is not perfect, any engineer will tell you that. Take the male reproductive system. Or most important organs, the testes, can't function properly at the body's ambient temperature. So they dangle in an extremely vulnerable scrotum. Bad design.

And why do we have tailbones? Or appendixes? Wasted, useless parts are inefficient, especially if the rupturing of one of those useless parts can kill you.

Complexity can occur without God, I assure you. And I'm willing to bet there are plenty of scientists who know how complex the universe is far more than you do and who do not ascribe to religious dogma.

	28-06-2002 09:24									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Somebody needs to add this to the random quotations we get after posting. Truly a classic. You would honestly believe it's even MORE likely to have the creation of a God creature which has the CAPACITY to create worlds? That's such a lame short-sighted way of viewing everything. It doesn't even make sense once you look at the whole scope of it, not just the stuff you want to look at...

Why would that God need created or even be in the universe at all??

Some of the more interesting philosohpical thoughts have God outside of both time and space (As we know them).

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 09:25									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I do not love easily and for a long time thought I did not love at all and was incapable of it. How do you know that you do not love and are incapable of it. When I thought so I spent a large number of months testing and finding if there was anyway in which I could be said to love (you might need to broden you definitions). After a long time I determined that there was something there. I now know that I am capable of it but would still not say that I am a very loving person. I would suggest trying to love and it will grow on you (and I need to practise what I preach).

I'm just a really cold and heartless person. I do good things only because I find doing them more advantageous. I've tried to love, but cannot find it possible. I may be capable of love later, anything is possible, but there is also a chance I'll never change.

	28-06-2002 09:26									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 And which do you want to believe, Asher? It all depends on your perspective.

I personally believe there's no way to know either way, and the people who pretend to know are only kidding themselves and coddling their inner desires to know about the world around them, when they know nothing.

	28-06-2002 09:26									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Cite a source? The only evidence I am aware of is New Testament scripture, all of which was written at least 30 years after his death or more. There is, to the best of my knowledge, nothing contemporary to his life that supports he existed. There were no Roman records of his crucifixion, which is very odd, considering how good Roman record-keeping was on such matters.

There are Roman records of his crucifixion. I'd find them right now, but this thread is moving too quickly and at the moment I'm spending all my time replying. Maybe once it slows down.

	28-06-2002 09:26									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov The human body is not perfect, any engineer will tell you that. Take the male reproductive system. Or most important organs, the testes, can't function properly at the body's ambient temperature. So they dangle in an extremely vulnerable scrotum. Bad design. And why do we have tailbones? Or appendixes? Wasted, useless parts are inefficient, especially if the rupturing of one of those useless parts can kill you. Complexity can occur without God, I assure you. And I'm willing to bet there are plenty of scientists who know how complex the universe is far more than you do and who do not ascribe to religious dogma.

But a lot of scientists are religious (about as many as are nonreligious). And a scientists job is not one condusive to having a lot of faith.

BTW, I and many others who are Christian do not think that this earth is perfect. If it was perfect there would be no sin and the world would act in a much different way.

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 09:26									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse I'm just a really cold and heartless person.

Sociopath?

	28-06-2002 09:27									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse I'm just a really cold and heartless person. I do good things only because I find doing them more advantageous. I've tried to love, but cannot find it possible. I may be capable of love later, anything is possible, but there is also a chance I'll never change.

Do you want to change??

I had to search for it

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 09:27									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller Why would that God need created or even be in the universe at all?? Some of the more interesting philosohpical thoughts have God outside of both time and space (As we know them). Jon Miller

Don't you see the paradox?

Creationists ask why God would need to be created in order to create the world, others ask why the World needs to be created to exist.

They're both saying the same thing, but the Creationists are a bit too out there considering there's zero evidence of it. And plenty against it.

	28-06-2002 09:28									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov The human body is not perfect. . .

I never said it was.

quote: Complexity can occur without God, I assure you. And I'm willing to bet there are plenty of scientists who know how complex the universe is far more than you do and who do not ascribe to religious dogma.

Once again, it all depends on one's perspective of the universe. It's the way you look at it. I don't think it all could have just happened. Personally, I'd rather be on the safe side.

	28-06-2002 09:28									#146
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Sociopath?

In a way. I'm one of the nicest sociopaths you'll ever meet though.

	28-06-2002 09:29									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller 30 years afterwards is amazingly early to make up someone totally ficticious who did all the things that Jesus was described as doing.

Except that, it wouldn't necessarily be totally fictitious. One prominent scholar has recently published a book in which he poses a theory that Jesus was a myth based upon a cult figure from 200 years before that.

quote: I think it is safe to say (from a sceintific standing) that there is a basis for the stories of Christ (I would agree that there is no sceintific evidence for His miracles though)

There is only the Bible, which is not remotely enough to be considered "scientific" evidence of anything. To put it simply: there is as much evidence that Jesus existed as there is that the Tower of Babel did: none, except what the Bible says.

quote: Jon Miller

Boris Feodorovich Godunov

	28-06-2002 09:30									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller Do you want to change?? I had to search for it

Yes. Change makes life interesting. I like when things change, especially when I would get back something nice like love.

	28-06-2002 09:30									#149
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god will save all who wants to be saved and does not turn back when asked 'so you wanna get in dude?'.
Regardless if he was a bad or good. That's my interpretation of it.. god won't turn back on You no matter what. Evil dudes in real life don't want to get in there. They'll go to hell + those who spend their lives scaring people that they go to hell.

	28-06-2002 09:30									#150
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quote: Our bodies, for instance, are so complex, that the odds of them just evolving over a long period time is like 1 in centillion (680 zeros)

The odds of you being born were pretty highly improbable too. This is a perfect chance to apply the anthropic principle with no logical fallacy.

You have to show that intelligence of any kind is impossibly unlikey to have evolved in nature.