02-07-2002 02:27									#91
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quote: a) Europe has no problem in cutting its own deals to avoid the threat of its personel appearing before the ICC

you mean this point?
So you're basing that on the deal made in Afghanistan?
Read my earlier post...you know, the one from which Echinda quoted.

quote: b) they lack the ability to even deal effectively with problems arising on thier own continent and are quite content with that fact

quote: ya the USA just stands in the way every time the EU tries to form a EU military task force

	02-07-2002 02:31									#92
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Lemmy: Such histrionics don't bode very well for your arguement. The EU itself negotiated a very similar deal in Afghanistan only on a more limited basis and we heard no hysterical cries that they were reserving the right to commit war crimes. More over, US military conduct will still be governed by the Geneva Conventions and before that it was the Lieber Code. So, claims that the US military is going to engage in systematic war crimes is silly at best and out and out lieing at worst.

PS You only commented on half the post.

	02-07-2002 02:34									#93
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quote: More over, US military conduct will still be governed by the Geneva Conventions

**cough**Guantanamo Bay**cough**

	02-07-2002 02:37									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus **cough**Guantanamo Bay**cough**

Which is within the letter of the conventions.

	02-07-2002 02:38									#95
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**cough**ask the Red Cross**cough**

	02-07-2002 02:38									#96
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"ya the USA just stands in the way every time the EU tries to form a EU military task force etc etc etc."

I thought the USA was in a favor of a common European defense force.

""Black Dragon",hmmmm that name sounds familiar...Weren't you the guy that ratted out Apolyton at Newsmax?"

Yup, that's right, I stopped your stupid little attempt to mess up someone's elses forum because the people there disagreed with you. Not that this has anything to do with this thread, but I guess posting that was all you could do because you are too stupid to contribute to this discussion.

"uhm, yeah, the US acted two times, and Saddam is still sitting there, great job
And twice you claimed you saved the world of a great evil"

And we stopped Saddam from conquering Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.

"Tell me, did the US help us back in 1940 when we actually were invaded by the Germans?"

If it weren't for our country you would be under Nazi or Soviet rule.

"What is see is the US reserving the right to commit war crimes"

No, we are seeing the US protecting itself from BS charged levied by anti-American prosecutors with independent authority.

	02-07-2002 02:41									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus **cough**ask the Red Cross**cough**

You really should get that cough looked at and comeback when you have something of import to say.

	02-07-2002 02:42									#98
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quote: I thought the USA was in a favor of a common European defense force.

Not quite, since it's against the ERRF

quote: If it weren't for our country you would be under Nazi or Soviet rule.

we were under Nazi rule. You didn't care. Only after they declared war on you you acted, not before.

And yes, you helped liberate Holland. But real credit goes out to the Britons and French, who tried to defend our country when war first started.

	02-07-2002 02:43									#99
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quote: comeback when you have something of import to say.

never stopped you from coming back

	02-07-2002 02:46									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus But real credit goes out to the Britons and French, who tried to defend our country when war first started.

If it weren't for the Britian and France, the war might not have happened.

	02-07-2002 02:47									#101
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Lemmy: Such histrionics don't bode very well for your arguement. The EU itself negotiated a very similar deal in Afghanistan only on a more limited basis and we heard no hysterical cries that they were reserving the right to commit war crimes.

Did you even read my earlier post on that deal?

quote: More over, US military conduct will still be governed by the Geneva Conventions and before that it was the Lieber Code. So, claims that the US military is going to engage in systematic war crimes is silly at best and out and out lieing at worst.

Then why not support the ICC court

quote: PS You only commented on half the post.

half your post, or half Echinda's post?
cos i'm not replying to the remaining half of your post

quote: And we stopped Saddam from conquering Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.

and then you left him there to do it again

quote: No, we are seeing the US protecting itself from BS charged levied by anti-American prosecutors with independent authority.

	02-07-2002 02:49									#102
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Is it really that hard to understand that we'd like to reserve the right to determine ourselves what is considered a war crime? Granted we always haven't prosecuted all of them, but many have been.

I guess it is.

Maybe if all you whiney arm chair generals had to send real soldiers into life and death situations, you'd be a little more concerned about what might happen afterwards in some Kangaroo court.

And If I think that, after listening to the "technically" more enlightened population at Apolyton, It's a sorry state of affairs and I never want to put a American Soldier under jurisdiction of our so called allies or enemies.

RAH

I would wholeheartedly support a world court if I knew the real goal was justice and not political payback.

	02-07-2002 02:52									#103
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quote: Is it really that hard to understand that we'd like to reserve the right to determine ourselves what is considered a war crime? Granted we always haven't prosecuted all of them, but many have been.

The ICC will only act if the US doesn't prosecute the said individual.

	02-07-2002 02:53									#104
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i guess having a little faith in another western court is just too much too ask for for the US.

	02-07-2002 02:55									#105
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And if the US determines that Prosecution is not warrented. It's Kanagroo court time. I don't think so.
I hate to say I'd trust my own government more, but after listening to all the pathetic automatic anti-anything american here, it's an easy call.

	02-07-2002 02:55									#106
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quote: If it weren't for the Britian and France, the war might not have happened.

The US wasn't very helpful either.

And when it mattered, our real friends were there. They fought, and died trying to protect us. Sadly they failed, but they tried. At the time we didn't even have a formal alliance with either country, unlike Belgium. Yet they still showed up ready to fight our invaders.

	02-07-2002 02:56									#107
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quote: And if the US determines that Prosecution is not warrented. It's Kanagroo court time. I don't think so. I hate to say I'd trust my own government more, but after listening to all the pathetic automatic anti-anything american here, it's an easy call.

So if the US governement is covering up acts of genocide and let the guilty ones walk freely, you are ok with that?

sick.

	02-07-2002 02:57									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi "ya the USA just stands in the way every time the EU tries to form a EU military task force etc etc etc." I thought the USA was in a favor of a common European defense force.

They have tried hard to block it.

	02-07-2002 03:00									#109
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yep. they are very much against the ERRF

	02-07-2002 03:01									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Lemmy Did you even read my earlier post on that deal?

quote: France and Britain have urged the United States to invoke a provision from the ICC treaty that allows the United States to secure immunity for its troops through bilateral agreements with countries that host U.S. forces.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2002Jun19.html

That is the type of deal that was struck in Afghanistan, Lemmy.

quote: Then why not support the ICC court

Why should I support the ICC?

quote: half your post, or half Echinda's post?

Echinda's.

	02-07-2002 03:01									#111
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Better that than convicting innocent soldiers based on made up accusations by our enemies.

Yes, neither is good. I don't trust the world court to be apolitical. Remember, originally I supported it. But after listening to all the venom spouted here by our supposed allies, I got a little paranoid, and now fully agree that in it's present form, we shouldn't support it.

RAH

I doubt any US service man would get justice from the likes of you.

	02-07-2002 03:04									#112
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quote: I doubt any US service man would get justice from the likes of you.

Hand 'em! Hang 'em all!!

	02-07-2002 03:04									#113
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Bill of Rights:

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

There is nothing more to say really. People in the United States are not going to give up their liberties to the International Cangaroo Court.

	02-07-2002 03:05									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus The US wasn't very helpful either.

The US was out of the picture entirely and had to be drug kicking and sreaming to become involved in another European war. I'm sorry but the only countries that could have and had the power to prevent WWII were the UK and France.

	02-07-2002 03:07									#115
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what about crimes abroad?

	02-07-2002 03:09									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Hand 'em! Hang 'em all!!

Even when you say things like that in jest, it still reinforces people's opinion why we never want it to come down to a person like you making that decision.
You create your own world of mistrust. And then wonder why we don't want to play. IT's sad. or more likely, you're sad.

RAH

	02-07-2002 03:09									#117
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quote: The US was out of the picture entirely and had to be drug kicking and sreaming to become involved in another European war.

I know you didn't want to help us. Some friends you are.

quote: I'm sorry but the only countries that could have and had the power to prevent WWII were the UK and France.

The US hardly did anything after WW2 to change British and French policies, and they certainly could have.

and yes, British and French policies were wrong. But that's easily said looking back at the past. Nobody predicted this would ever happen, and it did. And when it did, the US did nothing for us. Nothing whatsoever.

	02-07-2002 03:11									#118
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quote: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2002Jun19.html That is the type of deal that was struck in Afghanistan, Lemmy.

good, thanks for finding it for me
now let's quote some more...

quote: Under the terms of the accord, Afghanistan agreed that all members of the force, including U.S. liaison officers, "may not be surrendered to, or otherwise transferred to, the custody of an international tribunal or any other entity or state without the express consent of the contributing nation.

Imran pointed this out before, it only states that Afghanistan may not turn them over to the ICC. This does not garantuee immunity.

	02-07-2002 03:12									#119
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quote: You create your own world of mistrust.

That's funny coming from an American. Almost as funny as when an Israeli would have said it.

You're the paranoid ones who mistrust each and every person who does not live in the US of A (or Israel).

quote: or more likely, you're sad.

tsk. You can do better than that.

	02-07-2002 03:14									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Roland "In other words, unless Clinton gets assurance that the ICC won't indict him for war crimes in Yugoslavia and Iraq," Couldn't be arsed to read the rest. Lincoln, does that article recognize anywhere that the ICC jurisdiction is not retroactive ?

Ramsey Clark, of all people, was apparently leading an effort (where is it today?) to indict Clinton, Blair and others for war crimes and crimes against humanity in Yugosalvia under the 1991 Yogoslavia war crimes "statute." Among other crimes, it was alleged that the US allowed the KLA to slaughter everyone in the Serb town of Belo Polje.

First we have Sharon at the camps, the Dutch at Sebrenica, and now Clinton at Belo Polje. The facts in every case are similar. The one in charge of security permits a hostile group into a camp or town occupied by the civilian enemy, whereupon a massacre takes place. Clinton's reponsibility may be the most remote, but heck, the buck stops here, doesn't it?

Well it looks like Ramsey Clark's anti-Clinton vendetta is the source of US opposition to the ICC.

It is also interesting that Blair learned the same lesson from Ramsey Clark's accusations and got the British out from under the new ICC when he agreed to send troops to Afghanistan.

Again, does anyone know where the case against Clinton stands today?