02-07-2002 03:15									#121
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quote: You're the paranoid ones who mistrust each and every person who does not live in the US of A (or Israel).

nah, they only mistrust the ones who dare to criticisize them. Oh wait, that is everyone who doesn't live in the US

	02-07-2002 03:18									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Lemmy it only states that Afghanistan may not turn them over to the ICC. This does not garantuee immunity.

I think that you're trying to put a self-serving spin on the deal in light of the deals Britian and France want us to cut using the treaty's own provisions.

PS Afghanistan would be the only one other than the contributing country with the authority to provide the person to the ICC.

	02-07-2002 03:19									#123
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quote: Originally posted by rah Even when you say things like that in jest, it still reinforces people's opinion why we never want it to come down to a person like you making that decision. You create your own world of mistrust. And then wonder why we don't want to play. IT's sad. or more likely, you're sad. RAH

What is sad is that there are quite a few Europeans that share his extremism and bias against the United States, but they insist that we allow them to "impartially" sit in judgment of the world that they arrogantly claim jurisdiction over, even though the treaty has not even been ratified by most of the world.

	02-07-2002 03:23									#124
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74 and counting.

	02-07-2002 03:27									#125
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quote: I think that you're trying to put a self-serving spin on the deal in light of the deals Britian and France want us to cut using the treaty's own provisions.

huh?

quote: PS Afghanistan would be the only one other than the contributing country with the authority to provide the person to the ICC.

The contributing country still has to try their own soldiers, or hand them over to the ICC.

quote: What is sad is that there are quite a few Europeans that share his extremism and bias against the United States, but they insist that we allow them to "impartially" sit in judgment of the world that they arrogantly claim jurisdiction over, even though the treaty has not even been ratified by most of the world.

So, when is Europe gonna be added to the big ol' Axis of Evil?

See what we mean with you US-ians getting paranoid when you're being critisized.

	02-07-2002 03:29									#126
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No, we can just see bias when it is obvious. And you do make it pretty obvious.

	02-07-2002 03:30									#127
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There are no more anti-US people in Europe than you got rebels in the Apalachen trying to knock over your governmenr, there is just a lot of concern regarding your recent actions and decisions.

	02-07-2002 03:31									#128
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We have a constitutional right to be tried by a jury of our peers. It is as simple as that.

	02-07-2002 03:32									#129
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quote: 74 and counting.

what are you counting?

	02-07-2002 03:35									#130
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quote: We have a constitutional right to be tried by a jury of our peers. It is as simple as that.

not if you commit your trials abroad. You are subject to their laws. or are you saying Americans shouldn't be tried for murder in other countries either?

quote: what are you counting?

countries that have ratified the treaty or rome

	02-07-2002 03:51									#131
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No, I am saying that the ICC does not grant a trial by jury and it places American citizens in jeopardy twice for the same offence and it also claims jurisdiction over crimes wherever they are committed. Of course US citizens are subject to local laws. That has never been disputed.

	02-07-2002 03:55									#132
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and if a local governement arrests an American for crimes commited there, and decides the ICC would better be able to handle such allegations, would that be wrong?

	02-07-2002 04:12									#133
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If the ICC guidlines were written differenty then I would accept their jurisdiction in some cases. As it stands now national rights are being trampled. But I frankly would prefer to stand before the ICC than some other courts. If the court was designed to fill in the gaps where there is no legal system or justice then I would support it.

	02-07-2002 04:19									#134
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quote: Originally posted by markusf ya the USA just stands in the way every time the EU tries to form a EU military task force etc etc etc.

You need a military to form a task force.
You clowns are lucky if you know which way to point the buisness end of a weapon.

quote: the EU is and will be far better off without the US.

Your little "alliance" will fall apart, over the same things as always, one of you will decide to run the show, and another big war will start.
All you people ever did was try to suck us dry, better off without us?
You do NOTHING for us, you send token forces and block real change when we ask for assistance.
Your nations have been an anchor around our necks for decades, we only bother with you because we know if leave you alone you will start another world war.

quote: In the long run the US is going down.

Ha, we will still be here long after that joke you call a union is a bad memory.

	02-07-2002 04:20									#135
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only actions commited by individuals from, or in, countries that signed the treaty of rome are prosecutable.

what more do you need?

	02-07-2002 04:22									#136
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quote: Your little "alliance" will fall apart, over the same things as always, one of you will decide to run the show, and another big war will start.

LMAO

what world do you live in?

Do you also think the south will rise to power again?

quote: Ha, we will still be here long after that joke you call a union is a bad memory.

I'm sure many confederates thought the same thing back than of "that joke you call a union".

	02-07-2002 04:23									#137
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Why doesnt the court go after england for the Maze prison? 2000 perceived Irish Republican Army members locked up and had the key thrown away. None got a trial and most were held excess of 10+ years. And only finally did people start to care when the prisoners started protesting meager rations by throwing there feces at the gaurds.

If the court prosecutes this, then I might become a believer. But for now, I think its a joke.

	02-07-2002 04:24									#138
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It is July 1. The ICC begins. In Afghanistan, the US bombs a wedding, killing at least 20 and wounding scores.

I suspect Ramsey Clark is on the plane now flying to Afghanistan to gather evidence for an ICC complaint against Bush.

BTW, Saint Marcus, do you trust Germany?

On WWII, the Germans did not start the war with France. The French declared war on Germany. Germans overran Holland only because France had declared war.

Perhaps the US policy at that time to Europe was similar to EU policy today towards the United States. Perhaps the US was thinking that it would have been better for France to have used diplomatic means to resolve the issue of Poland. Instead, the warmongering French go off an start a war.

	02-07-2002 04:25									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus LMAO what world do you live in?

That would be earth, Marky Mark, you should visit us sometime.

quote: Do you also think the south will rise to power again?

Why should it?
Slavery is dead.

quote: I'm sure many confederates thought the same thing back than of "that joke you call a union".

Nope, they lnew they were fighting Americans, so it would be tough.

Correct me if I'm wrong Marky, isn't your little Union economic in nature?

	02-07-2002 04:28									#140
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quote: BTW, Saint Marcus, do you trust Germany?

Of course I do. They are our closest friends. We've even set up our own rapid reaction force with shared forces and command. They are also our biggest trading partner, and if push comes to shove, our closest ally.

We only hate them when it comes to soccer.

	02-07-2002 04:30									#141
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quote: Germans overran Holland only because France had declared war.

it was Hitler's plan from the start to take Holland. Not to stop France, but to stop Britain from using dutch airspace to attack Germany.

	02-07-2002 04:31									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus only actions commited by individuals from, or in, countries that signed the treaty of rome are prosecutable. what more do you need?

I think you have this wrong. Why would the United States be putting up a fuss if that was the case?

	02-07-2002 04:34									#143
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quote: BTW, Saint Marcus, do you trust Germany? On WWII, the Germans did not start the war with France. The French declared war on Germany. Germans overran Holland only because France had declared war

You're a twit. Germany had already invaded Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland and Spain before the Allies declared war.

	02-07-2002 04:34									#144
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beats me.

read the treaty of Rome. Only warcrimes commited in countries that signed and ratified the treaty, or commited by individuals who ratified the treaty, can be prosecuted in The Hague. The court doesn't work retroactive.

If, and only if, the security council decides otherwise these rules may be broken.

But since the US is part of the security council, that won't happen.

	02-07-2002 04:34									#145
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No. It's also partly political.

	02-07-2002 04:39									#146
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So, Saint Marcus, this doesn't change a thing. The Brits declared war on Germany. The US at that time may have preferred that England use diplomatic means to resolve the Poland issue.

Note that the US did not really get serious in Europe until the Germans struck South and East in 1941. Had they not done that, there remained a large number of Americans who would have preferred a diplomatic solution to the European war.

If this sounds incredibly stupid in retrospect, think of how the EU sounds to us on Iraq.

	02-07-2002 04:40									#147
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I hope you aren't putting Nazi Germany and Sadam's Iraq in the same league.

	02-07-2002 04:45									#148
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse quote: BTW, Saint Marcus, do you trust Germany? On WWII, the Germans did not start the war with France. The French declared war on Germany. Germans overran Holland only because France had declared war You're a twit. Germany had already invaded Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland and Spain before the Allies declared war.

Read on. I think the declaration of war by Briton and France was entirely justified. However, the point I am making is that "at the time," many in the US would still have preferred negotiations to war. This is partially why the US stood by and did virtually nothing for the first two years of the European war.

	02-07-2002 04:47									#149
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Ahhh, another US vs. EU circle jerk.

Makes me glad I won't have time for this bullshit any longer.

The amount of penile overcompensation in this thread is staggering.

	02-07-2002 04:47									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus I hope you aren't putting Nazi Germany and Sadam's Iraq in the same league.

Not Nazi Germany and Saddam's Iraq, because Iraq is no Germany. Hitler and Saddam, however, are quite comparable.