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KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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Macedonia
May 2001
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  Old Post 02-07-2002 04:50 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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quote:
Read on. I think the declaration of war by Briton and France was entirely justified. However, the point I am making is that "at the time," many in the US would still have preferred negotiations to war. This is partially why the US stood by and did virtually nothing for the first two years of the European war


When Iraq starts gobbling up its neighbours like Germany did, then feel free to go in. Until then, it's vengeance for something that happened 10 years ago.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:20
  Old Post 02-07-2002 04:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Guynemer
Ahhh, another US vs. EU circle jerk.


Does Mark L start any other kind? Sadly, it his only troll and he seems to be loosing his touch at them.

PS You really should decide on a specialty. Or are you planning on being a GP?

Guynemer is offline Guynemer
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Mar 1999
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Bah. I got lots of time to decide on a specialty. How can I decide before I've even tried anything yet?

Saint Marcus is offline Saint Marcus
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Jan 1970
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quote:
Hitler and Saddam, however, are quite comparable.


That's the stupist thing I've heard in a long time.

how many people did Hitler kill? And how many Sadam?

quote:
Does Mark L start any other kind? Sadly, it his only troll and he seems to be loosing his touch at them.


I would be hurt if it wasn't for this:

Thread: The US will soon run out of allies if it keeps acting like this

By: Saint Marcus

Replies: 152

Views: 938


DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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Sep 1999
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quote:
Originally posted by Guynemer
Bah. I got lots of time to decide on a specialty. How can I decide before I've even tried anything yet?


Bah! You just don't want people to annoy you at parties, yet.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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Sep 1999
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  Old Post 02-07-2002 05:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Saint Marcus
I would be hurt if it wasn't for this:


You count too much on the help of you European compatriots to save your thread. It isn't a true measure of your work.

Ned is offline Ned
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 02-07-2002 05:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Saint Marcus


That's the stupist thing I've heard in a long time.

how many people did Hitler kill? And how many Sadam?


The numbers differential is because Iraq is no Germany.

Saddam failed to conquer Iran. He did conquer Kuwait, but was rolled back. He alone among present leaders has used WoMD on his enemies. He continues to issue threats against the US, Briton and Israel while developing WoMD. The guy is indistiguishable from der Fuhrer.

Guynemer is offline Guynemer
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc


Bah! You just don't want people to annoy you at parties, yet.


Note to self: kill DinoDoc. He knows too much.

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
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The U.S. was once the biggest supporter of an ICJ.

But now its ally Israel could find its *** in a wringer.

Ned is offline Ned
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 02-07-2002 06:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
The U.S. was once the biggest supporter of an ICJ.

But now its ally Israel could find its *** in a wringer.


AH, did you read that blub from Lincoln at 01-07-2002 09:03 where the reason the US, once a very big fan of the ICC, suddenly changed its tune when Ramsey Clark charged Clinton, et al. for war crimes in Yugoslavia (Bosnia and Kosovo)? Well here is the entire indictment for your reading pleasure:

Text of the indictment prepared by Ramsey Clark.

The List of Charges

The Complaint



This Complaint is presented to end the scourge of war, prevent future violations of fundamental human rights, protect international and national organizations, governments and institutions and to hold those convicted of the violations alleged accountable for their acts.



The Governments, Organizations and Individuals named herein are charged with:

Crimes against Peace, War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity and Other Offenses in Violation of the Principles of the Nuremberg Tribunal (Nuremberg), the Hague Regulations (Hague) and Geneva Conventions (Geneva) and Other International and National Laws;

Grave Violations of the Charter of the United Nations (UN Charter), the North Atlantic Treaty (NAT), other international treaties, International Law, the Federal Constitution and Domestic Laws of the United States, the Basic Laws of Other Nations Including the United Kingdom, the Federal Republic of Germany, Turkey, the Netherlands, Hungary, Italy, Spain and other Governments of NATO members and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

Grave Violations of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR), the Genocide Convention, and Other International Covenants, Conventions, Treaties, Declarations and Domestic Laws named herein.







A. Defendants

1. President William J. Clinton, Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, Secretary of Defense William Cohen and Commanding Generals, Admirals, U.S. personnel directly involved in designating targets, flight crews and deck crews of the U.S. military bomber and assault aircraft, U.S. military personnel directly involved in targeting, preparing and launching missiles at Yugoslavia, the government of the United States personnel causing, condoning or failing to prevent violence in Yugoslavia before and during NATO occupation and Others to be named.

2. The United Kingdom, Prime Minister Tony Blair, the Foreign Minister, the Defense Minister and Commanding Generals, Admirals, U.K. personnel directly involved in designating targets, flight crews and deck crews of the U.K. military bomber and assault aircraft, U.K. military personnel directly involved in targeting, preparing and launching missiles at Yugoslavia, the government of the United Kingdom personnel causing, condoning or failing to prevent violence in Yugoslavia before and during NATO occupation and Others to be named.

3. The Federal Republic of Germany, Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, the Foreign Minister, the Defense Minister and Commanding Generals, Admirals, German personnel directly involved in designating targets, flight crews and deck crews of the German military bomber and assault aircraft, German military personnel directly involved in targeting, preparing and launching missiles at Yugoslavia, the government of the Federal Republic of Germany personnel causing, condoning or failing to prevent violence in Yugoslavia before and during NATO occupation and Others to be named.

4. The Government of every NATO country that participated directly in the assaults on Yugoslavia with aircraft, missiles, or personnel and Commanding Generals, Admirals, NATO personnel directly involved in designating targets, flight crews and deck crews of the NATO military bomber and assault aircraft, NATO military personnel directly involved in targeting, preparing and launching missiles at Yugoslavia, the governments of the NATO countries’ personnel causing, condoning or failing to prevent violence in Yugoslavia before and during NATO occupation and Others to be named.

5. The Governments of Turkey, Hungary, Italy and others who permitted the use of airbases on their territory to be used by U.S., or other military aircraft and missiles for direct assault on Yugoslavia.

6. The North American Treaty Organization (NATO), Secretary General Javier Solano, Supreme Commander, General Wesley K. Clark

7. For Condemnation: Each NATO member that voted to authorize military assaults on Yugoslavia.







B. The Charges

1. Planning and Executing the Dismemberment, Segregation and Impoverishment of Yugoslavia.

The United States, Germany, NATO and other defendants engaged in a course of conduct beginning in, or before 1991 intended to break the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia into many parts, segregate different ethnic, religious and other groups among and within newly balkanized borders, weaken the Slav, Serb, Muslim and other populations by causing and prolonging internal violence and by direct assaults by the United States and certain NATO members. As a consequence Yugoslavia, which had 25 million people in an integrated society and economy, is now comprised of many small nations, the largest of which is Serbia. Defendants intend to divide Yugoslavia until all parts of Yugoslavia have fewer than 5 million people, each to be overwhelmingly of a single ethnic origin and religion, to have severely impaired economies largely dominated by foreign interests, in which two groups, Orthodox Christian Serbs and Muslims suffer severest casualties, most extensive property damage, a vast reduction of productivity now down by three-quarters or more, and a generation of impoverishment.

UN Charter; Declaration on the Inadmissibility of Intervention in the Domestic Affairs of States and the Protection of their Independence and Sovereignty (Non Intervention Decl.), 1965 USGA Res. 2131.



2.Inflicting, Inciting and Enhancing Violence between Muslims and Slavs.

The United States and other defendants engaged in a course of conduct beginning in or before 1991, to cause Muslims and Orthodox Christian Slavs to engage in protracted fratricidal violence, in wars of attrition, similar to conflicts in Afghanistan and Chechnya between Muslims and Russian Slavs, which caused death, destruction and division in Bosnia, Kosovo and elsewhere between the groups and dangerous frictions and enmity between two major enemies of the U.S., Slavic peoples and Muslims, in other regions, weakening both. Tactics included both providing and depriving select Muslim groups of arms to attack others, or adequately defend themselves in Bosnia; motivating, training and supplying KLA with arms to attack Yugoslav police and military to seize control of Kosovo during NATO occupation and attack Serbs and others; preventing outside efforts to prevent and control the violence; committing, causing and condoning violence against persons displaced by U.S. and NATO bombing campaigns, and by KLA and Yugoslav police and military ground actions; causing and supporting clashes between Yugoslav military/police/civilian groups and KLA/paramilitary/civilian groups; condoning and failing to prevent assaults on displaced persons returning to and persons who remained in Kosovo, both before and after the NATO/U.S. occupation of Kosovo. In 1999, the U.S. caused the largest numbers of deaths, injuries and destruction by aerial and missile assaults against all elements in the population and its life support systems.

UN Charter, Art. 2; Non Intervention Decl.; Resolution on the Definition of Aggression (Res. on Aggression), 1997 UNGA Res. 3314.



3. Preventing and Disrupting Efforts to Maintain Unity, Peace and Stability in Yugoslavia.

From the beginning of its efforts to implement its plans for dismemberment and destruction of Yugoslavia, the U.S. acted to prevent any interference, negotiation, or other efforts within Yugoslavia, or by other nations, leaders, or individuals to prevent the accomplishment of its intended purposes. Its techniques included political, military and economic threats and control of highly publicized peace negotiations much like those at Dayton, Ohio, during the Bosnia struggle, at Rambouillet, France, in 1999, which created an appearance of earnest peace negotiations, but offered Yugoslavia only two choices, agree to foreign military occupation, or expect a devastating military assault.

UN Charter; Non Intervention Declaration; Resolution on Aggression; Pact of Paris 1928, Art I and II.



4. Destroying the Peace-Making Role of the United Nations.

The United States acted and coerced other nations to act to block the United Nations from performing its duties under the UN Charter to prevent conflict, control violence and maintain peace in Yugoslavia in violation of the Charter of the UN and threatening its viability as a international institution capable of maintaining peace and ending the scourge of war.

UN Charter; Non Intervention Decl.; Resolution on Aggression, Pact of Paris 1928, Art I and II.



5. Using NATO for Military Aggression against and Occupation of Non-Compliant Poor Countries.

The United States acted and coerced other nations to act to cause NATO to authorize direct military assaults on Yugoslavia in violation of the UN Charter and the North Atlantic Treaty relying overwhelmingly on U.S. weaponry and military technology and to cause NATO members to provide and finance the majority of the military forces to occupy Kosovo for the foreseeable future thereby employing the wealth and power of the rich former colonial powers of Europe against the poor and defenseless people of Yugoslavia.

United Nations Charter; North Atlantic Treaty 1949, Art. I.





6. Killing and Injuring a Defenseless Population throughout Yugoslavia.

Beginning on, or before March 24, 1999, the United States, without a declaration of war by the Congress, aided and abetted by certain NATO members, including the United Kingdom, Germany, Turkey, Spain and the Netherlands, as well as Hungary, Croatia, Italy and others, commenced a war of missile and aerial bombing assaults, often indiscriminate in its targeting, against the populations of Yugoslavia, intentionally killing and injuring many thousands of Serbs, Albanians, Romas, Muslims, Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholics, foreign nationals throughout Yugoslavia with malice aforethought.

Hague, Art. 22 and 23; Geneva 1949, Art. 19; Nuremberg, Principle VI a, b and c; U.S. Constitution, Art. I, Sec. 8, cl. II.



*** It goes on like this for many counts. ***



C. Relief Sought

1. Freedom for all Balkan peoples to form a federation of their choice to provide political, civil, social, economic and cultural independence and viability for all the peoples of the region.

2. Comprehensive efforts to create mutual respect, common interests and bonds of friendship among and between Muslims, Slavs and all national, ethnic and religious groups in the Balkans.

3. Strict prohibition on all forms of foreign interference with or disruption of efforts to establish unity, peace and stability in the Balkans.

4. Restoration of peace-making functions of the UN and reform of the UN to make it effective.

5. The abolition of NATO.

6. Full accountability by individuals and governments for criminal and other wrongful military assaults and economic injustice, including sanctions inflicted on all the people of Yugoslavia, their lives, resources, properties and environment to include criminal prosecutions and reparations sufficient to place all the population in the condition it would be in had it not suffered the wrongs inflicted on it, together with resources with which to build a better future of the peoples’ choice.

7. Abolition of the illegal ad hoc international criminal tribunal for Yugoslavia and reliance on a legal international tribunal of worldwide non-discriminatory jurisdiction capable of equal justice under the law.

8. Providing adequate media access to inform the world of the human destructiveness of the use of high technology weapons by the U.S. against poor and defenseless people and the practice of genocide by sanctions.

9. Removing all foreign troops from the Balkans at the earliest feasible moment and U.S. troops from NATO countries and elsewhere immediately.

A broader range of relief and reform may be found in Chapter 12 of The Fire This Time. It is drawn from the experiences and recommendations of the Commission of Inquiry and the International War Crimes Tribunal, which heard evidence in 20 countries concerning the assault on Iraq in 1991, the continuing assaults on Iraq thereafter and the genocidal sanctions that continue to this day.



Scope of the Inquiry

The Commission of Inquiry will focus on U.S. criminal conduct, aided and abetted by NATO, because of the dominant U.S. role in the military and other wrongful acts against Yugoslavia. The U.S. did not incur a single casualty to itself while causing thousands of deaths in Yugoslavia. The U.S. is also the focus because of the peril of continuing U.S. conduct to all the people of Yugoslavia and the risk of aerial and missile strikes against other nations in view of its recidivist record.

The Commission of Inquiry will seek and accept evidence of criminal acts by any person or government, related to the conflict, because it believes international law must be applied uniformly. It believes that "victors’ justice" is not law, but the extension of war by force of the prevailing party. U.S. propaganda and international media coverage demonized Yugoslavia, its leadership, Serbs and Muslims to fit its purposes, but rarely noticed the criminal destruction of Yugoslavia by U.S. acts as set forth in this complaint.

Comprehensive efforts to gather and evaluate evidence, objectively judge all the conduct that constitutes crimes against peace, war crimes and crimes against humanity and to present these facts for judgment to the court of world opinion requires that any serious fair effort focus on the United States. The Commission of Inquiry believes its focus on U.S. criminal acts is important, proper, and the only way to bring the whole truth, a balanced perspective and impartiality in application of legal process to this great human tragedy.



Ramsey Clark

July 30, 1999


International Action Center
39 West 14th Street, Room 206
New York, NY 10011
email: iacenter@iacenter.org
http://www.iacenter.org
phone: 212 633-6646
fax: 212 633-2889

- Groucho - is offline - Groucho -
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Jan 2001
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How long do i have to wait before I can safely say St. marcus et al are unable to answer my post and thus lose the argument?

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 02-07-2002 09:25 Visit Alexander's Horse's homepage!
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What post?

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  Old Post 02-07-2002 09:33
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It's back on page three or four. I made some good points, too, but it's been assigned to the dustbin of history now, I guess.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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Sep 1999
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  Old Post 02-07-2002 09:35
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I tried to get them to answer it but they refused.

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
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I didn't read it.

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  Old Post 02-07-2002 09:43
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C'est la guerre.

morb is offline morb
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Nov 2001
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  Old Post 02-07-2002 09:55
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the "international court" is nothing but a war tribunal. what I dont see is how the countries of europe are not opposed to this idiotic idea. it makes possible a scenario where a person might otherwise be subject to this international court in which case by giving up that person to be prosecuted by such a court the US will be violating its laws and the very ideals of its legal system.

here's a news flash. countries such as iraq/iran/pakistan/china will never extredite their own people to be prosecuted by such a court, so its very existance is trivial. why should the US compromise its policies just to please the EU and the UN? this alliance is more of a negative for the US than for the EU.

if you guys want to make a "trans-european" or "memers of EU only" international court, go right ahead. I'm sure it will help you with unification and delusion of sovereignty and national identity, which is what you seem to want most. but leave the US out of it. we'll prosecute our people under our own laws. trial by a jury of peers could not possibly include people of other nations by definition. does this international court even have a jury system?? or is it really a full on tribunal? feh.

Roland is offline Roland
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May 1999
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  Old Post 02-07-2002 12:31
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Ned: "rah, et al., I find it interesting that the argument for maintaining the alliance between United States and Europe is being made by the Americans and not by the Europeans."

For the simple reason that this "alliance" provides a (small) net benefit for the US, and a net loss for Europe.

Shi: "I thought the USA was in a favor of a common European defense force. "



Lincoln: "People in the United States are not going to give up their liberties to the International Cangaroo Court."

That would also be hardly possible, after those freedoms have been pissed away through trial by pleabargain, impunity for sale, corrupt prosecutors, sleeping judges, the "war" on drugs, the "war" on "terror" etc etc.
To come from a hopelessly messed-up legal system like the US and complain about a Canguroo Court is a bit much.

Chris: "Correct me if I'm wrong Marky, isn't your little Union economic in nature?"

While I'm not Marky, nope. This thing is political since 1952. Maybe even the Yanks will start understanding this. It's only 50 years now....

"You clowns are lucky if you know which way to point the buisness end of a weapon."

Meanie. Even I know that.

Echinda: I have explained ad nauseam the limits of the ICC jursidiction, and how the statute is NOT binding on third parties. I'm just tired of it, correcting the same errors and misperceptions for the 100th time.

Lemmy is offline Lemmy
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quote:
Echinda: I have explained ad nauseam the limits of the ICC jursidiction, and how the statute is NOT binding on third parties. I'm just tired of it, correcting the same errors and misperceptions for the 100th time.

as Dr. Stiby said on earlier:
quote:
It's funny how people remember what they want to remember!

Gatekeeper is offline Gatekeeper
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  Old Post 02-07-2002 13:41 Visit Gatekeeper's homepage!
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Everyone:

A de-linking between the United States of America and the European Union would be windfall for those in the world who are genuinely against the interests of economic freedom, democracy and transparent governments.

Despite all the hot air in this thread — and there is a lot of it — you all know darn well that a mostly united West will be able to do a lot more in containing the genuine threats facing the world than if it is fractured into a even a *pair* of feuding spheres of influence. Do you really think the leaders of Iraq, North Korea, Iran and countless other less-than-democratic countries wouldn't benefit from a new p*ssing match between the US and the EU? That's the kind of outcome that they and any other anti-Western groups would strive to leave no stone unturned in an effort to achieve. It just makes it that much easier for them if US and EU members are so damnably short-sighted enough to shoot themselves in the frickin' stomach.

Admit it, Europe. You are a toothless old tiger whose last taste of blood was during World War II. Unfortunately, it took the last of your real teeth out and, frankly, dentures and high-minded platitudes won't cut it in today's world. Hell, such ideals didn't tame Napoleon, Hitler or Stalin in the past. Do you really think it would work against the likes of Slobodan Milosevic or Saddam Hussein in the present? You need the active involvement of the US in order to maintain your post-modern united Europe, precisely because of our military capabilities and ecomic assets.

Admit it, America. We can't take on the world all by ourselves. You do the math. 290 million or so Americans versus 6 billion foreigners. We'd lose big time, and I suspect the world wouldn't exactly be left unscathed in such a nightmare scenario. I get angry sometimes when I read of others who bash America just for the sheer fun of getting a rise out another 'Poly member who happens to live in the States. The idea is to look past the rabble-rousers and *not* let them become the de facto representatives of what Europeans (at least in this case) think. We need to stay involved with the EU because, while we could use the military assets elsewhere, Europe is like us: they're republics with transparent governments and reliable economic models that ensure that a broad spectrum of people benefit from capitalism (to whatever degree it's practiced). They cannot be abandoned because some hotheads thought they could be cool by poking fun at Americans. Besides, we sacrificed the lives of hundreds of thousands of soldiers to ensure that democracy would not be uprooted following the horrors of World War II. To stomp off in a furor — righteous or not — would make their sacrifice meaningless in the long run.

What it comes down to is this: All the wrong people in the world WIN if a serious split ever develops between the US and the EU. There's no denying it! So sit up and take note that while talk comes easy, action is a lot harder and the new reality resulting from said action would be the pits.

Unless you're a terrorist. Or some demented national leader.

Gatekeeper

Lemmy is offline Lemmy
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heh, i know the US and EU won't split.
Mostly because of all the economic ties, they will drift apart a little, but they wouold have to drifting a very long time before all ties are broken, and before that happens the EU will get their act together, be more effective, and maybe the US will have changed their policies to more foreign-friendly.

Roland is offline Roland
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May 1999
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  Old Post 02-07-2002 14:26
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Well, I still think the atlantic alliance is dead and rotting, and do not see anything reviving it.

"Despite all the hot air in this thread ? and there is a lot of it ? you all know darn well that a mostly united West will be able to do a lot more in containing the genuine threats facing the world than if it is fractured into a even a *pair* of feuding spheres of influence. "

The west is not united. We are in a mutual tie-up that may be interesting as a sex practice but is hopeless as a political concept.

Convince us that it makes sense to go after Iraq. I fail to see a good reason to do so at the moment.

"Europe is like us"

We've been drifting apart since the 70s at the latest.

"Unfortunately, it took the last of your real teeth out and, frankly, dentures and high-minded platitudes won't cut it in today's world."

The funny thing about Americans - and I generalize because this carries through your media as well - is that we euros are teethless old pacifists, who would not hesitate a second to go to war against each other because we are bloodthirsty nationalists.

What is it now ?

ThePantaloonDog is offline ThePantaloonDog
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Feb 2001
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  Old Post 02-07-2002 16:39
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"Well, I still think the atlantic alliance is dead and rotting, and do not see anything reviving it."

While I don't think the atlantic alliance is in the best shape its been, I do believe that the current wave of immigrants and terroism will bring western countries together. WEstern countries all have the same ideal; a free society that is based on the individual. Right now western society is under pressure from societies that don't follow these same ideals. If America had a government that had some clue at international politics then the atlantic alliance would be much stronger. Its only weak because of weaknesses in American leadership.

"Convince us that it makes sense to go after Iraq. I fail to see a good reason to do so at the moment."

This is just a ploy from Bush to look like he's doing something and to "finish off the job" his father never completed.


"The funny thing about Americans - and I generalize because this carries through your media as well - is that we euros are teethless old pacifists, who would not hesitate a second to go to war against each other because we are bloodthirsty nationalists."

Europe was seen as bloodthirsty nationalists back in the 19th century. I doubt any American would expect to see a war in Western Europe in their life times. If America had able politicians right now they would probably work out a compromise instead of unilaterally going off and bombing random countries.

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
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  Old Post 02-07-2002 16:58 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Roland

Lincoln: "People in the United States are not going to give up their liberties to the International Cangaroo Court."

That would also be hardly possible, after those freedoms have been pissed away through trial by pleabargain, impunity for sale, corrupt prosecutors, sleeping judges, the "war" on drugs, the "war" on "terror" etc etc.
To come from a hopelessly messed-up legal system like the US and complain about a Canguroo Court is a bit much.



Well you have a point there.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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  Old Post 02-07-2002 17:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln
Well you have a point there.


That's just his standard attack to deflect criticism of the ICC, Lincoln. I would think that a lawyer of his caliber knows better than to use logical fallacies.

Roland is offline Roland
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  Old Post 02-07-2002 17:26
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That's just my standard point to deal with that particular criticism. You can be against it for all kinds of reasons, but keeping your particular (and failing) trial guarantees is a strange point.

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
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  Old Post 02-07-2002 17:45 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
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Why should we willingly give up more rights though. The ones that are taken from us are bad enough.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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  Old Post 02-07-2002 17:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Roland
That's just my standard point to deal with that particular criticism.


That doesn't keep it from being a logical fallacy, Roland. I have faith that you can come up with a better response to it.

quote:
You can be against it for all kinds of reasons,


Out of interest, can you tell me what you would consider a serious criticism?

quote:
keeping your particular trial guarantees is a strange point.


Why is it such a strange point?

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
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"Why is it such a strange point?"

I think the whole concept of judgment by a jury of peers is strange to Europeans. I don't know about double jeopardy though.

Roland is offline Roland
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  Old Post 02-07-2002 17:53
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"That doesn't keep it from being a logical fallacy"

In the context of Lincoln's point of "canguroo court" there is no fallacy.

"Out of interest, can you tell me what you would consider a serious criticism?"

That jurisdiction extends beyond the core of large scale war crimes. States can opt out of this, but it's still overburdening.

Some aspects of the trial system, esp pre-trial.

Or a simple sovereignty point. But if you make that one you have to acknowledge the territorial sovereignty of the member states, against which a personal sovereignty "not our citizens" cannot be invoked.

"Why is it such a strange point?"

Because those guarantees are good in theory, but often disregarded and weak in practice anyway.

 
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