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Lincoln is offline Lincoln
King
TN
Jul 2000
time: 05:20
  Old Post 02-07-2002 17:56 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Kamrat X
AFAIK there is no solution. Thatīs why itīs called a paradox Itīs like Schrodingers Cat...

Edit: Are we talking about Mawells Demon?


Yes, and there is a solution.

Ramo is offline Ramo
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The demon ignores the second law of thermodynamics...

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
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Well don't stop there...

Ramo is offline Ramo
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The idea is if you've got a room, and if you open the door when high speed molecules come out or when low speed molecules get in, you've got a free air conditioner. So apparantly the second law of thermo is ignored.

But if you consider photons from the observer, the increase in entropy is justified.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 02-07-2002 18:20
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William Henry Harrison was indeed the shortest-serving President. He gave his inaugeral address in the rain without a hat. He caught pneumonia and died one month later, and was succeeded by his VP, John Tyler.

Garfield gets the No. 2 slot here. He was actually shot a month after assuming the presidency, but did not die from his wounds until 6-7 months later. His initial wound wasn't actually fatal, but his incompetent doctors killed him.

There was not, contrary to myth, any man who assumed the Presidency for a single day. The United States transfer of powers does not allow for this. The president of the Senate once assumed the powers of the President when Zachary Taylor refused to be inaugerated on a Sunday in 1849, thus creating a one-day gap in the Presidency. David Rice Atchison assumed presidential powers, but there's no way to say he was actually President.

The story is that Atchison slept most of the day, anyway.

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
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time: 05:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
The demon ignores the second law of thermodynamics...


The second law is not a 'law', and so the whole set-up does not contravene any laws of nature anyway.

Work it out with macroscopic particles, in a frictionless environment, say space.

Tolls is offline Tolls
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Hereford, UK
Jan 1970
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  Old Post 02-07-2002 18:24
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Roland:
"John of Bohemia"

Wasn't he the blind one?

Dr Zoidberg is offline Dr Zoidberg

King
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Jan 2002
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  Old Post 02-07-2002 18:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln


Yes, and there is a solution.


Is there any proof for this? Or is it just a theory? And is it plausible?

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
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I didn't write this but I think it is a pretty good summary of the solution:

Recall that Maxwell's demon is a creature that opens and closes a trap door between two compartments of a chamber containing gas, and pursues the subversive policy of only opening the door when fast molecules approach it from the right, or slow ones from the left. In this way the demon establishes a temperature difference between the two compartments without doing any work, in violation of the second law of thermodynamics, and consequently permitting a host of contradictions.

In this illustration the demon sets up a pressure difference by only raising the partition when more gas molecules approach it from the left than from the right. This can be done in a completely reversible manner, as long as the demon's memory stores the random results of its observations of the molecules. The demon's memory thus gets hotter. The irreversible step is not the acquisition of information, but the loss of information if the demon later clears its memory.

A number of attempts were made to exorcise Maxwell's demon, such as arguments that the demon cannot gather information without doing work, or without disturbing (and thus heating) the gas, both of which are untrue. Some were tempted to propose that the 2nd law of thermodynamics could indeed be violated by the actions of an "intelligent being.'' It was not until 1929 that Leo Szilard made progress by reducing the problem to its essential components in which, the demon need merely identify whether a single molecule is to the right or left of a sliding partition, and its action allows a simple heat engine, called Szilard's engine, to be run. Szilard still had not solved the problem, since his analysis was unclear about whether or not the act of measurement, whereby the demon learns whether the molecule is to the left or the right, must involve an increase in entropy.

A definitive and clear answer was not forthcoming, surprisingly, until a further fifty years had passed. In the intermediate years digital computers were developed, and the physical implications of information gathering and processing were carefully considered. The thermodynamic costs of elementary information manipulations were analyzed by Landauer and others during the 1960s (Landauer 1961, Keyes and Landauer 1970), and those of general computations by Bennett, Fredkin, Toffoli and others during the 1970s. It was found that almost anything could in principle be done in a reversible manner, i.e. with no entropy cost at all. Bennett (1982) made explicit the relation between this work and Maxwell's paradox by proposing that the demon can indeed learn where the molecule is in Szilard's engine without doing any work or increasing any entropy in the environment, and so obtain useful work during one stroke of the engine.

However, the information about the molecule's location must then be present in the demon's memory. As more and more strokes are performed, more and more information gathers in the demon's memory. To complete a thermodynamic cycle, the demon must erase its memory, and it is during this erasure operation that we identify an increase in entropy in the environment, as required by the 2nd law. This completes the essential physics of Maxwell's demon.

Classical information theory is founded on the definition of information. A warning is in order here. Whereas the theory tries to capture much of the normal meaning of the term "information", it can no more do justice to the full richness of that term in everyday language than particle physics can encapsulate the everyday meaning of "charm". "Information" for us will be an abstract term. Much of information theory dates back to seminal work of Shannon in the 1940's (Slepian 1974). The observation that information can be translated from one form to another is encapsulated and quantified in Shannon's noiseless coding theorem (1948), which quantifies the resources needed to store or transmit a given body of information. Shannon also considered the fundamentally important problem of communication in the presence of noise, and established Shannon's main theorem, which is the central result of classical information theory. Error-free communication even in the presence of noise is achieved by means of "error-correcting codes", and their study is a branch of mathematics in its own right. Indeed, the journal IEEE Transactions on Information Theory is almost totally taken up with the discovery and analysis of error-correction by coding. Pioneering work in this area was done by Golay (1949) and Hamming.

Dr Zoidberg is offline Dr Zoidberg

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OK! I think I understand... So the demon doesnīt actually circumvent the 2nd law of thermodynamics?

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
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The idea is that "information" is an entirely different set of laws that do not violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Information is a field of science of it self.

Dr Zoidberg is offline Dr Zoidberg

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Got it! Is there any research done in this new field of "information"?

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
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I recently read two books that I found quite interesting on the subject. The Touchstone of Life, by Werner Loewenstein, and, In The Beginning Was Information, by Werner Gitt. Also, Claude Shannon did a great deal of research on the theory of information.

Chowlett is offline Chowlett
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May 1999
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Oh, and Ramo was correct about the Markov chains.

Thucydides is offline Thucydides
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Screw you guys, I'm going home.
Jan 1970
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  Old Post 02-07-2002 21:15
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Chowlett,
what is that your using for your avatar. I know I've seen that somewhere before, like some physics problem involving electromagnetism, but I can't remember exactly what it was...

Victor Galis is offline Victor Galis
Emperor
in exile
Jul 1999
time: 00:20
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I thought it was a Klein bottle.

Thucydides is offline Thucydides
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  Old Post 02-07-2002 21:21
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klein bottle, that's it. I think I had to figure out what the charge would be on it's surface or something, been so long I forgot the math though...

Dr Zoidberg is offline Dr Zoidberg

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Communist Party of Apolyton
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Buy your own Klein bottle today!

http://www.kleinbottle.com/

Chowlett is offline Chowlett
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May 1999
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  Old Post 04-07-2002 00:14
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Hence the (admittedly incorrect - I'll change the description if someone can come up with a snappy and correct alternative) line in my sig.

Dr Zoidberg is offline Dr Zoidberg

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Communist Party of Apolyton
Jan 2002
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  Old Post 04-07-2002 00:36
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Oh yeah, thereīs the link...in your sig...now I feel more stupid than usual...

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King
Communist Party of Apolyton
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  Old Post 04-07-2002 00:46
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Another question:

Lord Nelson suffered from two rather large handicaps. Which were they and how did he get them?

Chowlett is offline Chowlett
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  Old Post 04-07-2002 01:23
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Lack of eye, Lack of arm. He lost both in battles, I believe, but I can't remember which.

Dr Zoidberg is offline Dr Zoidberg

King
Communist Party of Apolyton
Jan 2002
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Yes, Iīll give you partial credit He was wounded in the face in a skirmish at Calvi and therefore lost the sight on his right eye. And he lost his right arm after a ill-concieved attack on Santa Cruz de Teneriffe.

Your turn.

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
Emperor
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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 04-07-2002 01:39
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Which is also why 111 is called a Nelson in cricket.

Dr Zoidberg is offline Dr Zoidberg

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Communist Party of Apolyton
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Whatīs a 111?

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
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A score. 111 runs is known as a Nelson, like 100 is known as century.

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King
Communist Party of Apolyton
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  Old Post 04-07-2002 02:26
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OK! My cricket knowledge is as good as non-existent...

SnowFire is offline SnowFire
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New York City, NY
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
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For what it's worth, President Harding was the one with the flashy silver pants. For no appearant reason, it apperantly made him unstoppable with the ladies (and he was an old geezer when he was in office too!).

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
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  Old Post 04-07-2002 09:18
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Harding was the worst womanizer to inhabit the White House, and his administration gets the credit for being the most corrupt ever (with Grant's a close second).

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Worse than JFK and Clinton? Damn...

 
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