05-07-2002 22:01									#31
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Posted that while the others were going up...

Woohoo!!! AI offense on the way!!

Back to uprisings, my guess:

Worldwide pop reaches a certain level.

	05-07-2002 22:05									#32
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Back OT:

1. Mod guys: Remember, the goal is to develop a "standard" mod for the group to use. Don;t go crazy. Also, given Soren's input above, I would say don;t worry about AI offense for now. I do still think we want to check out AI level and / or aggression settings.

2. Trials and Challenges: I've been dreaming up some stuff that I'll post later today. I specifically ask Sir Ralph, Aeson, and nbarclay to put on their thinking hats... I'd suggest focusing on the early to mid game until the patch comes out.

My first contribution: Capitol Hunt. The challenge is to capture all AI capitols as quickly as possible. Just an idea...

	05-07-2002 23:25									#33
	Re Soren's Barbarian Uprising Challenge Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Barbarian Uprisings occur at times of opportunity, similar to real life. Times of turmoil such as Warfare or Anarchy are prime candidates.

Additionally, it always seems to be that it can only occur if an encampment has been undisturbed for awhile.

Do I win the prize, Soren?

	05-07-2002 23:29									#34
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Re barb uprisings: maybe when a certian percentage of the world is "colonized", uprisings occur similar to the "tribes movement" or whatever that´s called in English when loads of germanic tribes invaded Rome etc?

	05-07-2002 23:30									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis I'm afraid you are on the wrong track about Barbarian Uprisings. Try to think of it in "Global Historical Terms." Tell you what, if no one figures it out in a week, I'll come back and post the answer.

Soren, then announce it in a week, and don't tell even if someone guesses, I'll try to make this a public one .

I must admit, though, I've only been uprised twice, and once I saw it when playing with a friend. Otherwise, no uprisings, so I can't really remember the details, but I'll try to grab the prize, as long as you promise to give me access to the PtW beta .

quote: hey, I'd probably get fired if I started posting in the CtP forums. Well, maybe not, but I would certainly get some funny looks around here.

Is that not what we all want?

	06-07-2002 06:16									#36
	Uprisings Got spare money?

A wild guess: when destroyed barbarian tribes are unable to respawn?

Last edited by GeneralTacticus on 06-07-2002 at 07:11

	06-07-2002 16:10									#37
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General, clearly no, since they come from tribe huts. Hm, Soren says historical context.

Maybe it's if a Civ has a Barbarian tribe nearby that has really attacked that Civ in history?

	06-07-2002 20:07									#38
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quote: Originally posted by cyberhunne Re barb uprisings: maybe when a certian percentage of the world is "colonized", uprisings occur similar to the "tribes movement" or whatever that´s called in English when loads of germanic tribes invaded Rome etc?

Sacking, perhaps.

	06-07-2002 23:39									#39
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Hmmm. Well, both Egypt and Greece had 'barbarian' problems long before Rome rose to prominence.

I see them in most every game. I'd say it's just timed somewhat randomly to occur at a certain point in the game that roughly corresponds with the Hyksos or Celtic incursions.

/Edited to remove offending musing.

Last edited by notyoueither on 07-07-2002 at 00:17

	06-07-2002 23:47									#40
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It's not random, nye, there's a defined trigger, Soren says.

Maybe it happens roughly at the time when the civ you are playing really had barbarian invasions - so Rome was overrun by barbarians in 5th century, so if you play Rome, you will get an uprising in 5th Century?

	07-07-2002 00:06									#41
	Re: Re: The Best of the Best Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis I'm afraid this terminology is somewhat confusing. If you want to make the game easier for the AI (and thus harder for you), change the editor setting to Chieftain, not Deity. Think of it as what difficulty level the AI picks to play at. It only affects things like combat barbarian bonuses, goody hut probabilities, and free content citizens. It does NOT affect the AI production bonuses in any way. btw, if you want a killer AI, have you considered lowering the production bonus below 6 (the Deity level)? Has anyone tried it at 1?

hi ,

Theseus , its not nice to quote things that are never been said >"maybe start with emperor AI on a monarch game" , .....

Soren ; what is been said , is the following ;
when playing on "deity" put the level of the AI in the editor also on "deity" , ...
why , well because the AI gets all kind of extra cheap stuff , so far so good .

and yes its nice to lower the cost factor

now the default level is regent , when you put this to deity there are some important changes , and Soren can second this (!) ;

the number of citizens born content - 1
attack bonus against barbarians - 0
percentage of optimal cities - 70

with so few happy people the AI seems to gout more , so he can get resources that makes his people happy .
and the AI builds more buildings that make his people happy

the attack bonus is hard , but it leads to more elite units . a nice thing to do is also to make the basic barbarian a rifleman , the advanced one infantry and their sea unit a destroyer , .....

the percentage of optimal cities leads to higher corruption and waste when above it , so the AI starts to build more courthouses , more policestations , ...

this is only a personal preference and all the info should be read , these are just some things to make it harder in the game , ....

and yes while we are at it , for the people who dont believe it , you can let a civ start with up-to 25 units of a type , ...again Soren can second this .

what is also important is to give some , or even all the AI civ's ALL (!) the civ specific abilities , to make it easier for the AI .

Soren when you are in europe , free beer and food

Soren any other tips and tricks as to how increase the "level" , .....

have a nice day

	07-07-2002 00:20									#42
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The better bet would be that they occur once a certain percentage of the map is settled. Population pressures are usually what caused the migrations that are viewed as barbarian invasions.

	07-07-2002 03:51									#43
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Methinks it may be a certain tech, but that's just a wild guess.

	07-07-2002 06:10									#44
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Anyone ever seen hordes of horsemen, before horseback riding? Or barbarian sea vessels pre-maps?

Also, I don't think it'd make much sense to have barbarian uprisings at "times the civs really had them." I can't think of a barbarian uprising that the Germans had (heck, if you want to go back far enough, they WERE the barbarians ), and I'm sure people who've played as America have seen plenty before the 1600s, before anything resembling 'America' had even been settled.

I'm guessing it's either population, tech, war/anarchy, or timed.

	07-07-2002 06:56									#45
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I have never posted before in this forum, although I have been a regular reader, but I could not resist the temptation of trying to answer Soren's challenge... ;-)

I was just playing a game as the Chinese and 25 horsemen showed up at my doorstep soon after I had switched to Republic.
My personal guess is that government changes are the trigger for the barbarian uprisings.
Philosophically it would make sense (at least in my own little world... ;-) ) since barbarians would be (have been in history) drawn to attack higher forms of civilization. And the word "barbarian" was coined in the written records of the civilizations which survived these uprisings, right?

Additionally, I think it would coincide nicely with the timeline of Theseus and the observation that these uprisings seemed to occur concurrently for other civs as well (exchange of techs/simultaneous government switches).
My 0.02 euro... ;-)

Soren: I LOVE YOUR GAME, please don't be affected by the Coracles of the world.

	07-07-2002 07:02									#46
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quote: And the word "barbarian" was coined in the written records of the civilizations which survived these uprisings, right?

It was the Roman word for foreigner.

	07-07-2002 07:23									#47
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quote: Originally posted by De Gaulle I have never posted before in this forum, although I have been a regular reader, but I could not resist the temptation of trying to answer Soren's challenge... ;-) I was just playing a game as the Chinese and 25 horsemen showed up at my doorstep soon after I had switched to Republic. My personal guess is that government changes are the trigger for the barbarian uprisings. Philosophically it would make sense (at least in my own little world... ;-) ) since barbarians would be (have been in history) drawn to attack higher forms of civilization. And the word "barbarian" was coined in the written records of the civilizations which survived these uprisings, right? Additionally, I think it would coincide nicely with the timeline of Theseus and the observation that these uprisings seemed to occur concurrently for other civs as well (exchange of techs/simultaneous government switches). My 0.02 euro... ;-) Soren: I LOVE YOUR GAME, please don't be affected by the Coracles of the world.

well, this is probably the closest theory yet posted... it's does not involve governments though. That would be an indirect link...

	07-07-2002 07:43									#48
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Merci Soren...
"it does not involve governments though. That would be an indirect link..."
If governments are an indirect link, could the trigger be resource-based then?
By that I mean an uprising would occur if:
a) a barbarian encampment still exists nearby
b) your GNP has reached a set value, making your civ an attractive target for plundering.
The indirect link with government switch would be that in most cases your GNP will increase markedly upon switching governments and therefore reach the triggering value...

Going in the right direction or totally off?

	07-07-2002 09:21									#49
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Anybody ever had 3 or 4 stacks pop up at once? That's not nice. Man! Not nice.

Anyways...

Global Historical Terms

does not involve governments though. That would be an indirect link

Advances, except Trip said that...

Percentage of map settled ain't it either...

What's left that's global?

Total population?

Total forces in the field? Yup, that's my next bet. Can't have barbs running willy nilly before the civs can at least put up a semblance of defence.

Except mine of course... I usually just evacuate the target town, spend as much gold as possible prior to it (or them) being hit, and then reoccupy the town(s) after the barbs go away. They almost always seem to catch me in the REX stage.

	07-07-2002 09:47									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis well, this is probably the closest theory yet posted... it's does not involve governments though. That would be an indirect link...

At least X number of civs in anarchy (undergoing government switches) -- those crafty barbarians wait for the "civilized" to go into disorder before striking?

[X would either be a set value or a variable dependent on number of civs playing].

Catt

	07-07-2002 09:57									#51
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Total forces in the field? Yup, that's my next bet. Can't have barbs running willy nilly before the civs can at least put up a semblance of defence. Except mine of course... I usually just evacuate the target town, spend as much gold as possible prior to it (or them) being hit, and then reoccupy the town(s) after the barbs go away. They almost always seem to catch me in the REX stage.

Interesting idea.
Off topic: I use a similar strategy when threatened by huge stacks of barbarian horsemen. But somehow it feels a bit like an exploit... The first time I used it to save money and redeploy my troops to a town that I could at least hope to save. But Poof! They pillaged 5 gold and then all disappeared. Very surprising... For the interest of the game I think I would have actually "liked" to see them target the remaining cities until they all died fighting...
Every other time they would wipe me out of course...

	07-07-2002 10:56									#52
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They will also destroy any improvements, production in the works and carry off the citizens to slavery. Hey, better than costing me the garrison in a forlorn hope. Sometimes.

	07-07-2002 14:25									#53
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They destroy improvements? I hadn't noticed this; Probably because I didn't have any in these outlying towns...
You are right about saving the garrison, especially since they don't raze the town. A little strategy like this one is probably one of the multiple places where the human player has an advantage over the AI. Just by tweaking the system in a way that was probably not expected, we get to save the cost of the settler, of the garrison and of the plundering of our treasury while the AI pays for it cash.

However, in my current game I pretty much had to ship my entire treasury to Elisabeth for a few techs... Everything considered, this barbarian uprising might come back to haunt me again in a few turns...

	07-07-2002 16:39									#54
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Hmm, Soren, is you say that government theory is "the closest" one, it must really be somehow related with you being a tasty target. Certain level achieved, like Republic, x GNP and y population, or Monarchy, y GNP and x population... nah really confused.

I'm eager to see the right answer because I've seen the uprisings so rarely, must be a reason behind it...

	07-07-2002 20:47									#55
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What about a percentage of the world population in disorder? That can happen when switching govs, but is an indirect link...

DeepO

	07-07-2002 20:54									#56
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I've just had an uprising! And, no clue why... I didn't do anything special, and my culture was 222 points then... not culture related.

	08-07-2002 00:26									#57
	Barbarian Plundering Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Have you noticed how, individually, barbarians plunder little gold when they enter your now-defenseless town? It is only when they enter it in hordes that they are a signficant financial threat, as each unit plunders a few gold (times 10 or 20?).

	08-07-2002 00:37									#58
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I noticed it diminishes over time, first barbarians run away with 90+ gold, while it diminishes steadily till 10 gold or so. No difference between uprisings and individual, though (at least not in my games)

DeepO

	08-07-2002 00:48									#59
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO I noticed it diminishes over time, first barbarians run away with 90+ gold, while it diminishes steadily till 10 gold or so. No difference between uprisings and individual, though (at least not in my games) DeepO

hi ,

it depends also on the amount of gold you have , ...

have a nice day

	08-07-2002 19:31									#60
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Rehashing alexman's comment, the AI doesn't seem to build MA much at all and keeps calvary around to 2050. Spent about 20 minutes watching Japan send seemingly hundreds of calvary to their death against a stack of MA yesterday. Japan had had synthetic fibers forever, but no MA, just MI.