10-07-2002 17:21									#121
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DeepO, I think only one uprising can happen in a game, for Soren says it's triggered by a second time something happens - and there can only be one second time.

	10-07-2002 17:31									#122
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Solver, that's what I want to know. It is possible that certain things happen twice multiple times , one example being the transition to a new age (I know that's not the trigger, but it is an example). If so, you could have 3 uprisings in a game, but would most likely only see one or two of them, as by the time you go from Industrial to modern no camps are present anymore.

DeepO

	10-07-2002 17:33									#123
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If a second change of ages would be the trigger, it would also only happen once .

	10-07-2002 17:57									#124
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The better bet would be that they occur once a certain percentage of the map is settled. Population pressures are usually what caused the migrations that are viewed as barbarian invasions.

Or when the land available for barbarians is reduced to a certain amount due to settlement, as you said, but also to fortress, pickets and patrols.

	10-07-2002 18:08									#125
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IIRC, I had a game in which there were two different barb uprisings, but I think it was on the 1.16 patch. They both occured within a short period of each other. I have seen barb camps very late in a coquest game, but don't remember any uprisings past the 500 AD time frame. Could be the second civ to reach a certain level of culture. Or the second civ to reach Fuedalism or some other trigger tech.

	10-07-2002 18:12									#126
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Uprisings are generated by a pressure of a growing population outside the civilization, when the density of the population inside suddenly decreases, due to an enlargement of the cultural border. Therefore, the trigger should be a cultural level increase.
Or could be ...

	10-07-2002 18:26									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Meldor Or the second civ to reach Fuedalism or some other trigger tech.

Perhaps the 2nd civ entering the medieval age?

	10-07-2002 18:30									#128
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Doesn't sound like it... all civs usually enter the age at about the same time, do you always have uprising at that time?

	10-07-2002 20:54									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Perhaps the 2nd civ entering the medieval age?

Or maybe the 2nd civ to enter a golden age triggers it?

	10-07-2002 21:14									#130
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2nd GA? That sounds quite possible... figure then, in a game with Aztecs, Babylon and the Zulu, uprsings would be granted to occur early.

And that's what I have in my current game: a pretty early uprising, but there's Egypt, Babylon , Zulu and Aztec...

	11-07-2002 06:12									#131
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ok, enough with the suspense!

barbarian uprisings are triggered the second time a civ enters a new age. (once for the middle ages, once for the industrial age, once for the modern age...) The intention was to basically simulate the barbarian hordes that knocked out Rome and (to a lesser degree) the Mongols. This made a little more sense back when barbarians were more destructive, but having half your civ knocked out for seemingly random reasons was deemed not much fun. Instead, we flipped the concept around and gave a temporal bonus (the Golden Age) instead of a temporal penalty.

I think DeepO gets the award for being the first to mention it...

	11-07-2002 07:11									#132
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Haha! I was... wrong.

Congrats to DeepO and Sir Ralph. ::mutter, mutter::

Thanks for the test Soren. 'twould be cool if we could do it again some time.

	11-07-2002 07:39									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis I think DeepO gets the award for being the first to mention it...

Belgium 1 - rest of the world 0

	11-07-2002 08:54									#134
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I'm a little confused...

The second time any civ enters a second age? Meaning, I as the human do it, and then an AI civ does it?

Or the second time, period, that one of the civs in the game, human included, does it?

I like the principle.

	11-07-2002 14:05									#135
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Thanks Soren for providing us with the guessing. Can you please do another one ?

Hmm, if I ever get an uprising in the Modern Age, I'll tell you .

	11-07-2002 16:49									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis I think DeepO gets the award for being the first to mention it...

Thanks Soren! Being the first was not that difficult, I must have mentioned about 100 other ideas as well

A great question, I hope you'll repeat this with some other hidden mechanic soon!

DeepO

	11-07-2002 16:51									#137
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Edit: corrected a stupid mistake. I see Soren says that multiple risings can occur, so there is no need to pose that question again... sorry

DeepO

Last edited by DeepO on 11-07-2002 at 16:57

	11-07-2002 17:34									#138
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Well done DeepO.
And thanks for the info Soren

	11-07-2002 20:33									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I'm a little confused... The second time any civ enters a second age? Meaning, I as the human do it, and then an AI civ does it? or....

That is what I made of it.

	11-07-2002 20:38									#140
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Remember that the human player doesn't even have to be involved. It's the second time *any* civ enters a second age. Two AI's can get to medieval times and leave you fending off barbarian hordes.

	11-07-2002 20:44									#141
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Do massive uprisings happen from many barbarian camps simultaneously, or from just one? If just from one, is it randomly chosen, or is is close to the civ that triggered the event?

What happens if there are no barbarian camps on the map when the second civ enters a new age? Do some get created?

	11-07-2002 21:06									#142
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I think, without being sure, that every existing barbarian camp spawns horseman stacks. Depending on barb level, either 8 (roaming), or 16 (restless), or 24 (raging). If there's no camp, there's no uprising. This is most likely be the case, when the 2nd civ strike the industrial age. I only once have seen such a late uprising, IIRC it was in the CFC GOTM6, after I razed the whole China to avoid domination and the barb camps returned.

	11-07-2002 21:07									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I'm a little confused... The second time any civ enters a second age? Meaning, I as the human do it, and then an AI civ does it? Or the second time, period, that one of the civs in the game, human included, does it? I like the principle.

This is not what he said.

quote: barbarian uprisings are triggered the second time a civ enters a new age. (once for the middle ages, once for the industrial age, once for the modern age...)

This is what Soren said. The major difference is only one use of the word second.

By this, it would indicate any time a civ meets the condition, any civ since he didn't limit it to players, an uprising occurs. Also, there could be one again at industrial, and again at modern, if there are still camps around.

	11-07-2002 23:30									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I think, without being sure, that every existing barbarian camp spawns horseman stacks. Depending on barb level, either 8 (roaming), or 16 (restless), or 24 (raging). If there's no camp, there's no uprising. This is most likely be the case, when the 2nd civ strike the industrial age. I only once have seen such a late uprising, IIRC it was in the CFC GOTM6, after I razed the whole China to avoid domination and the barb camps returned.

A poster named cracker (at another forum site) lives up to his name - he has methodically and intelligently "cracked" various aspects of the game and reported some of his findings to the community at large (always very accurate and intelligent posts).

As a tangential thought to another point he was making (I forget the main point) he indicated that, just as Sir Ralph says, every exisitng barbarian camp worldwide rises up on the same turn.

BTW, in minitourney III, I got the "uprising" notice which referenced an uprising near my northeastern-most city. However, I could see a barbarian camp near my southeastern-most city, near my broder with the very few (respawned) Japanese cities. I evacuated a few workers and units from the open fields in the southeast to a nearby city behind a river and withstood the barbarian stack with only a few units lost and the rest promoted to elite. I never saw any barbarians in the northeast, and can only assume that Cleo took the brunt of that uprising. So I know for certain that at least multiple camps (if not all) rise up at the same time.

Catt

	12-07-2002 00:32									#145
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In my iroqouis empire game, a hostile barbarian camp uprised, with 16 horsemen!
The tactic I used to get rid of them was to lead them to my undefended city, where they ransacked it and then dissapeared. Spend all your money somewhere else or the barbarians will take it.. or if you don't want to lose your production in the city keep about 120 gold and the barbarians will take the gold destroy your city production.
I suppose having the great wall would be useful against such uprisings with the barbarian defence.

	12-07-2002 00:47									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Admiral PJ I suppose having the great wall would be useful against such uprisings with the barbarian defence.

If you have walls in the first place, that is. But with normal walls, there's a big chance one defending spearman will win anyhow. No need for the Great wall... but that's no news

DeepO

	12-07-2002 02:02									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis ok, enough with the suspense! barbarian uprisings are triggered the second time a civ enters a new age. (once for the middle ages, once for the industrial age, once for the modern age...) The intention was to basically simulate the barbarian hordes that knocked out Rome and (to a lesser degree) the Mongols. This made a little more sense back when barbarians were more destructive, but having half your civ knocked out for seemingly random reasons was deemed not much fun. Instead, we flipped the concept around and gave a temporal bonus (the Golden Age) instead of a temporal penalty. I think DeepO gets the award for being the first to mention it...

Soren,
One idea for patch (or maybe for PTW if it's too much).

What about more variety in barbarian uprisings.
Warriors and Horsemen are fine in ancient and middle ages, but having them later is a little bit ridiculs.

Also, later ages "barbarian hordes" never happen since all territory is already sttled.

So maybe making them assault from ships (like in Civ2) for entering in industrial era (PIRATES!)

And for modern era, just make them assualt near your weaker cities (REBELLION, GERRILA, REVOLUTION!).

These effect should not be too much powerfull, but still siginificat to promote better defense of your cities.

As you said, having super horde appering random is not too much fun.

And you can make it as an option in starting game screen too (if somebody preferes more tamed World).

	12-07-2002 03:02									#148
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Ah, I get it now!
The 2nd civ to enter Middle Ages triggers uprisings.
The 2nd civ to enter Industrial Ages triggers uprisings.
...

Of course, there has to be at least ONE(?) barbarian encampment in existence.

JB,
President of the Equal Combat Rights to Barbarians Society*
(see Editor: Difficulty Levels tab:Attack Bonus Against Barbarians)

	12-07-2002 06:12									#149
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I have seen as many as 3 encampments spawn the uprisings at once, so I know they're simultaneious. It's more of a pain when you've got your swordsmen next to th camp to disperse it and the camp rises up. All you can do is Fortify your swordsmen and hope they take out enough of the Horsemen before they die to reduce the threat.

If you really want the barbarian expeience, play on Raging and reduce the barbarian bonuses for all difficulty levels by half. Barbs are challenging then. I also tried changing the basic barbarian to Archer but that made them just a tad mean against my poor exploring Warriors. The Barbarian sea unit in my mod is the Privateer - it's perfect with the hidden nationality.

For REALLY mean barbarians, make the basic Barbarian Archers or even Swordsmen, and the advanced barbarain Knights. Recommended only for the most masochistic if combined with reduced bonuses!

Interesting thing to do with Barbarians: Go into the editor, and tweak the units that the Barbarians can build. This list governs what you can get out of goodie huts. I added Archer to the basic list, and now I can pop an Archer out of a hut occasionally instead of a Warrior. Other units that are good to add are any unit that can be built when the seven basic techs are researched, such as Spearmen and Chariots. Don't add Settlers or more advanced units to the list because this unbalances the game.

	12-07-2002 06:41									#150
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Soren, One idea for patch (or maybe for PTW if it's too much). What about more variety in barbarian uprisings. Warriors and Horsemen are fine in ancient and middle ages, but having them later is a little bit ridiculs. Also, later ages "barbarian hordes" never happen since all territory is already sttled. So maybe making them assault from ships (like in Civ2) for entering in industrial era (PIRATES!) And for modern era, just make them assualt near your weaker cities (REBELLION, GERRILA, REVOLUTION!). These effect should not be too much powerfull, but still siginificat to promote better defense of your cities. As you said, having super horde appering random is not too much fun. And you can make it as an option in starting game screen too (if somebody preferes more tamed World).

Yes! I've also suggested stuff like this in another thread.

How about "small uprisings" from encampments that are spawned randomly. This is where the encampment produces a few units at the same time instead of just one. The number of units would be about 2 to 5, depending on the Barbarian setting, and would happen about every 4th time the encampment spawns units.

You could also have "large uprisings" with a number of units equal to half the number for "massive uprisings", and these would be spawned if the encampment has remained for a while, say 30 or 40 turns.

As for barbarians in late ages, it's not usual to get land-based encampments after the middle ages, but these can be spawned from time to time if a civ has gone on a raze-fest and there's suddenly a large contiguous area of the map that's free of cities. For these to spawn Horsemen in the Infantry age is silly - give the barbs teeth!

My idea for controlling the units that Barbarians can produce is to make more extensive use of the Build options for barbarians instead of having just three units in the general settings. Barbarian encampments would produce the most advanced unit on the list that any civ can produce. Goodie huts would also work a little differently. They would only pop a unit on the list that any civ can already produce. For example, they would only pop a Swordsmen if any civ has Iron Working and Swordsmen are in the list. The list would work by tech and not units, so if the Persians are the only civ with Iron Working, the huts can still pop Swordsmen.

Finally, barbs should spawn at sea in the Fog of War like they did in CIV2. It would make Privateers more interesting if the Barbs could spawn them at sea at any time.