08-07-2002 20:00									#61
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That's because the AI never disbands units and Cavalries are a dead-end. It is meanwhile very good in upgrades, but never disbands. Apparently, their Military Advisor guy tells them "Unless we get more gold, we cannot support more of our glorious armies", and the AI listens. If there's no war for long, the AIs sit on dozens or hundreds of outdated swordsmen, longbowmen and cavalries, while others have tanks and modern armor. If the AI would disband old units for shields, it could keep its attackers up to date.

Soren, are you still around?

	08-07-2002 20:49									#62
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quote: Originally posted by panag it depends also on the amount of gold you have , ...

If you mean it can't go negative, I agree. Other than that, my experiences differ: I've seen stacks of barbs plundering my treasury from 800 to 40, nicely diminishing 1 gold each turn. And, late in the game, I've seen a barbarian take only 13 gold from my 6K gold heap.

DeepO

	08-07-2002 20:54									#63
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Ralph, yeah that's the problem.

SOREN: since you're reading this thread. The AI does a great job, post 1.21f, at using defensive units when invading as a cover, and also at producting those units should resources be unavailable. I saw a civ lacking horses mass Riflemen exclusively early in the Industrial Age - the best thing it could have done. However, when the AI has resources, it completely forgets about true offensives units. It's a bit ridicilous in late industrial for the AI to have 140 Infantry units and 5 Tanks, no? I understand the problem must be that the AI looks at the units' flags, but maybe have it look at the attack value, too? Hope you reply.

	08-07-2002 21:15									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Nakar Gabab Also, I don't think it'd make much sense to have barbarian uprisings at "times the civs really had them." I can't think of a barbarian uprising that the Germans had (heck, if you want to go back far enough, they WERE the barbarians ), and I'm sure people who've played as America have seen plenty before the 1600s, before anything resembling 'America' had even been settled.

This thread is so far OT, a little sidestep won't matter

Technically, there couldn't be Barbarians for Americans, Romans, or Germans IRL. While now it has become a known term for all rough, pirate like tribes, it used to be a term given to the Berbers, when they ruled the seas in their pirate boats. These live(d) in what is now Morocco, parts of Algeria, and parts of Spain, and, IIRC, where only pirating in the early middle ages. The Roman empire never had any trouble with them (they had problems enough with the Cartagenians and Vandals) as it was too soon, and they're geographically too far from both America and Germany.
I know, this is a bit of picking, and I like it a lot that the different tribes are given names more geographically correct to a certain civ. But the real Barbarians were mostly pirates instead of horsemen, and a big problem if you encountered them at sea. Maybe they should get more or better ships in Civ to reflect the pirate role they had

DeepO

	08-07-2002 23:28									#65
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Barbarian uprisings........

I would venture to guess that it occurs when the total number of barb camps that have occured globally, reaches a certain point. So, if it is a map that is slower for expansion, the greater the chance for an uprising. I have noticed more uprisings when the civs are isolated and the map makes for slow expansion. Might also have some connection to the total number of unhappy people in the world, or the average thereof.

[EDIT] Extra o in would.

	08-07-2002 23:38									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Nakar Gabab Anyone ever seen hordes of horsemen, before horseback riding? Or barbarian sea vessels pre-maps?

No. If I see the first barbarian horseman, that usually means at least one civ has horseback riding. Similar with galleys.

quote: I can't think of a barbarian uprising that the Germans had (heck, if you want to go back far enough, they WERE the barbarians )

Sure. The Romans called the hordes from the north barbarians, from the latin word barba, meaning beard. That would be my beardy ancestors .

	09-07-2002 00:34									#67
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Sorry to strip your ancestors of their place in defining facial hair, Sir Ralph, but the latin word barbarus is derived from the greek word barbaros, which means foreigner. But maybe barba is derived from barbarus (not the other way around), so you don't have to shave your beard just yet...

	09-07-2002 00:52									#68
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quote: Originally posted by alexman the latin word barbarus is derived from the greek word barbaros, which means foreigner.

I thought it meant: "People who don't speak Greek."

Which is kinda the same thing I suppose.

	09-07-2002 04:33									#69
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or "People not on Apolyton."

	09-07-2002 17:50									#70
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The better bet would be that they occur once a certain percentage of the map is settled. Population pressures are usually what caused the migrations that are viewed as barbarian invasions.

That´s what I meant in my other post . A certain percentage of the world map being colonized, causing population pressures, barbarian migrations and finally narbarian uprisings.

Well it seems the solution lies somewhere else, though...

	09-07-2002 17:55									#71
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet I thought it meant: "People who don't speak Greek." Which is kinda the same thing I suppose.

Yes that´s how I remember it as well. The foreigners´primitive tribal languages sounded like complete gibberish to the Greeks, all they understood was "baa baa" and so the word "barbarian" somehow evolved, meaning "people not speaking a decent civilized language (ie Greek)".

Of course, as usual, the Romans just copied this off the Greeks .

	09-07-2002 17:58									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Solver I've just had an uprising! And, no clue why... I didn't do anything special, and my culture was 222 points then... not culture related.

Perhaps it´s not your culture, but "global" culture triggering this, and nonetheless everyone is affected by uprisings...

Or when the first wonder of the world is built, maybe?

	09-07-2002 18:23									#73
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Remember that this is not a trigger that happens every game, for sometimes there are games without uprisings (most of my games, somehow). So it's circumstance that does occur, but not every game - so, wonders are built every game, culture is made every game... hmm, really waiting for Soren to post it .

	09-07-2002 18:46									#74
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I'm just another frequent reader but less frequent (read one) poster. I can't say that I know what triggers the barbarian uprisings but I do know what don't. I've had an barbarian camp within my cultural bordeers for most of the time during the game, surrounded by troups to keep it away from danger. During the time I had it there I settled several cities around it, changed goverment and there were no uprisings. Neither did they disagree with having my culture covering them. I did not get hold of any new resources/luxuries but there were still an uprising. So, this might not make people wiser, but at least I'm trying to contribute...

/Vlado

	09-07-2002 18:50									#75
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Then what about my Berbers? Did they got their name from the Greek Barbaros as well? They surely would have talked gibberish

Strange how many enthymological explanations a certain word can have here on Apolyton, with everybody remembering a different story. I'm very positive I heard the explanation of Barbarians = middle age pirate Berbers a few times, but this of course is no garantuee at all...

DeepO

	09-07-2002 21:51									#76
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some more hints:

a barbarian uprising might not be caused by the human player...

the human player, in fact, might not even notice it...

it is, in fact, caused by the second time something happens...

	09-07-2002 21:55									#77
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Okay...here's my stab at the ol' barbarian uprising thing, based on all current hints:

The barbarians, resentful of the encroachment on their territory by the ever expanding cultural borders of their more civilized neighbors, strike out en mass after the second barb encampment is nixed by expanding borders.

Or...not?

-=Vel=-

	09-07-2002 22:03									#78
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Vel, that's a good one. It would explain a few of my uprisings... but still... how does this (indirectly) link to changing govs?

DeepO

	09-07-2002 22:11									#79
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The second time a city goes into civil disorder? This could be caused by a government switch if you don't manage your citizens...

	09-07-2002 22:29									#80
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Hmmm....I guess it doesn't....'cept the timing is about right. I mean, by the time your civ experiences it's 3rd or 4th big border push, that's about when you're ready to switch out of Despotism....dunno....

-=Vel=-

	09-07-2002 23:24									#81
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Vel's theory might be right, but disorder thing is wrong. As I say, uprisings don't happen every game, while disorders do.

Asides from barbarian camps being pushed by borders (IMO, very rare, though, I've not seen the AI settle without clearing Barbars out), it might also be caused by the second time... eh... oh... a second time a civilization hits certain level of bad things? Unprotected cities? Hmm, hardly.

	09-07-2002 23:34									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis some more hints: a barbarian uprising might not be caused by the human player... the human player, in fact, might not even notice it ...

You know what's really mean and nasty about these hints is that, especially in the period when barbarians are around, us humans generally know very little about what's going on with the rest of the civs.

Still awaiting the time when I can play the game with NO players (all AI). I am sure I would watch it at least once or twice.

	09-07-2002 23:35									#83
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It could be the second time a goody hut gets popped by a cultural expansion, as the AI will leave some of those alone (and if I go after them they always contain Barbs.) But that wouldn't be a very logical reason, and still it is not linked to gov changes.

I've seen uprisings nearly every time I play, a lot of the times you are not affected because you cleared all camps in your surroundings. I guess that the times you don't see them, somebody else just get hit.

A few other possible things:

• the second time a barb is beaten by a superiour unit
  
• the second time a barb beats a superious unit
  
• the second time a barb is beaten / beats a unit of a civ that is in anarchy (makes most sense if it has to be indirectly linked to gov changes)
  
• the second time a period of anarchy occurs
  

	09-07-2002 23:39									#84
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quote: * the second time a barb is beaten / beats a unit of a civ that is in anarchy (makes most sense if it has to be indirectly linked to gov changes)

Might really be it, a very good bet, IMO.

	09-07-2002 23:55									#85
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second time a barb gets to elite and produces a 'barb GL'?

	10-07-2002 00:02									#86
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and the guessing continues...

second time a city (any city) ends / starts a WLTKD. This one I like as well, those barbarians are attracted to a city, and it is indirectly linked to gov changes.

DeepO

	10-07-2002 00:03									#87
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alva848, do Barbs promote? Never seen that....

DeepO

	10-07-2002 00:07									#88
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO and the guessing continues... second time a city (any city) ends / starts a WLTKD. This one I like as well, those barbarians are attracted to a city, and it is indirectly linked to gov changes. DeepO

Try thinking in larger terms... it doesn't have anything to do with any particular city or any particular unit...

	10-07-2002 00:08									#89
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Barbs do not promote, by definiton, I've proven it.

Also: it can't be WLTKD, since those require size 6+ cities, and I've certainly seen uprsising with my biggest cities like size 2.

	10-07-2002 00:10									#90
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Thanks Soren , so it's a civ-range event. Nah... kill me... a second time there's an Anarchy?

If I understand correctly, there might be an uprising for the AI, with hordes running at each cities, so that I don't even notice, right?