10-07-2002 00:12									#91
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

okay, than the next guess is obvious: second addition to a palace.

BTW, those additions to palaces do puzzle me too (not that it matters a lot, it is pure eyecandy), sometimes my Civ is from start til end as happy as can be, and I only receive a lawn two turns before my SS leaves... other times I get them while half my cities need entertainers to stay out of disorder. I refuse to believe it is random, but the triggers for these additions might be a good question for next weeks guessing round

DeepO

	10-07-2002 00:14									#92
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Solver Also: it can't be WLTKD, since those require size 6+ cities, and I've certainly seen uprsising with my biggest cities like size 2.

Solver, it doesn't have to be your Civ that triggers it, any Civ will do. Okay, Soren said it wasn't WLTKD, but I wouldn't have dismissed it based on his previous hints.

DeepO

	10-07-2002 00:15									#93
	Remove this text

Soren, if you're willing to provide us with such "Guessing rounds" each week, give me the chance to send you some beer .

	10-07-2002 00:17									#94
	Suffering from ads?

DeepO: if uprising can be early in Ancient Age, no civ can have 6+ size cities by then.

	10-07-2002 00:21									#95
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Yeah, but I haven't seen any so early... I can't say for sure, but I think I was most of the times in the middle age, or just short of the middle age. At that time, my cities are mostly still size 2-3, while some AI cities reach higher pops. Certainly when they were wonder building.

It isn't triggered by the second Civ entering a new age, is it?

I'm trying to remember whether I've seen multiple uprisings in a game... anyone know for sure?

DeepO

	10-07-2002 00:25									#96
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When I seen it yesterday, I still had a pretty small empire... only one size 6 city, but due to an extremely growth-favorable starting positions... I HIGHLY doubt two WLKTDS at the point.

	10-07-2002 00:31									#97
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And how were the rest of the AIs doing, were they in the middle age yet?

As I mentioned above, Soren said it was not a city thing, so it can't have anything to do with WLTKD, I know that. I was simply stating that by my observations (or at least what I remember of them), and Soren hints it was not ruled out.

DeepO

	10-07-2002 00:36									#98
	Got spare money?

Oh, Solver, coming back on your offer of beer: I'll second that. Soren, if you give us such clues every week, I'll send you some BELGIAN beer

I'm sure you know that there is only one beer country in the world... qualitively speaking of course, what quantity is concerned Germany does better.

Belgium. Home of 3000 different trademarked beers. And the most beer consuming city in this country: Leuven. Yes, I know why I live here

DeepO

	10-07-2002 00:40									#99
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Nope, it was certainly an all-ancient uprising for me.

Soren: since you post a lot, and have the Civ 3 sourcecode lying on your table, provide us with such guessings each week, please, create Guess Threads for it . Next question could be: how many times does the cheat(); line appear in the code ?

	10-07-2002 00:51									#100
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Second question: was it that early that none of the AIs had monarchy, and thus weren't able to change govs? That would mean that something is triggering it, which is indirectly linked to gov-changing, but which could also happen before different govs are available... I can't think of what, ATM.

DeepO

	10-07-2002 00:58									#101
	Remove this text

second time a city is razed? (nope, I don't think so)

second time any Civ declares war to another? (can't see how it could be related to gov changing)

Grrhh... those puzzles tend to drive you crazy

DeepO

	10-07-2002 01:07									#102
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Nope, I got a suspection that one AI might have had Monarchy by the moment, the game's superpower. Not 100%, though.

Oh yeah, puzzles drive crazy, but it's FUN .

	10-07-2002 01:14									#103
	Put an end to popups!

1) Maybe the second time a civ government calapses into anarchy

2) The second time a any civ's capital is taken

3) The second time a civ drops by more than 50% culture due to lost cities.

	10-07-2002 01:21									#104
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

okay, another viewpoint. The way I see it, there are five stages in the development of Barbarian activity in a given game.

1. No barbarians from goodyhuts until there is a city and a miltary unit in the game. No camps either.
2. When cities / warriors are present, camps start to appear beneath the fog of war. warriors only. spawning of warriors is immediately(?) possible
3. Camps can spawn horses with discovery of horseback riding
4. Barbarian galleys appear with discovery of map making
5. Uprisings can occur, reasons unknown.

Am I right in thinking that there is a fixed order of these 5 events? Or could for instance 4 and 5 be switched?
Uprisings aren't triggered by the second Civ discovering Mapmaking, is it?

DeepO

	10-07-2002 01:25									#105
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Meldor: 3 times nope.
1) couldn't occur, as Solver had a game in which, possibly, only one other Civ had monarchy. Plus, it would be directly linked to gov changing, not indirectly.
2) couldn't be, as it is a city thing. We should look for meta-issues
3) Civs never drop in culture (it only adds up), but it could be that the amount of culture a civ generates in one turns is diminished by 50%. Quite unlikely, though (IMHO)

DeepO

	10-07-2002 02:08									#106
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Could it have anything to with pop-rushing (despotism)
seems to obvious. and then it should happen more often , at least in my games

btw: does anyone have save where there is a barb- risingupping ?

	10-07-2002 02:25									#107
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pop rushing... that was something I haven't thought about. Somewhere in the manual it says that people leave because they are tired of working so hard, so it does make a lot of sense that they'll join Barbarians instead. Why those Barbs start flooding you, however, is another matter.

to counter the occurence factor (indeed, risings would occur every other turn when it would be directly related to pop rushing), maybe it happens when two different Civs have pop rushed. But I wouldn't bet my money on it.

So again my question: has anyone seen multiple risings in one game?

DeepO

	10-07-2002 02:36									#108
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Just a thought (OffOffTopic)

It might be a fun idea, anytime a barb uprising occurs, give your closest city to the most powerful civ, bankrupting them

Question is, would they fall for it?

--mm

	10-07-2002 02:54									#109
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I did that once. It didn't exactly worked well, though. that city later became a cultural spearhead, and made one of my own cities flip

A tactic that did work a few times is to lead a horde away from your cities, and to the opponents. Especially in jungles / mountains it is easy: keep one tile in front with any unit, and just go straight to the first enemy city. The horde will follow you. If you manage to keep it up until you reach another city, you're freed from the horde, and their treasury gets sacked.

However, it is quite difficult: if the horde sees one of your cities before an enemy city, it will go towards that. And, terrain can be difficult: coming out of jungle or from the mountains usually means they can reach you in one turn, and your unit is gone. But it is fun to actually use the barbs for something good

DeepO

	10-07-2002 03:16									#110
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Just had a thought (it's probably not a new one), it would be nice if GLs would be generated fighting Barbs! That would give the peacefull types a option other then war with other civs.

	10-07-2002 03:34									#111
	Inflate your Upload Space

Wasn't this removed in the first patch? I thought my first ever leader was generated by a barb horde pounding on a spearman. He was also the first ever leader I lost before I could do anything with him, the spearman eventually gave in

DeepO

	10-07-2002 04:48									#112
	Full PM-box? Change here!

DeepO, I've definitely seen multiple uprisings, but always at the same time.

My next guess: The second city captured, by anyone, anywhere.

	10-07-2002 04:49									#113
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BTW, this may be the greatest threadjacking I've ever seen.

	10-07-2002 05:07									#114
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ok , let's see, maybe we try to sum things up, that we havn't discussed

* second forbidden palace being build (or able to)
* reaching max amount of optimal cities? (or half at least)

the rotten thing about this, is that is gonna be something awfully simpel (Soren stop laughing : )
like you have in crossword puzzles

	10-07-2002 10:06									#115
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Global Historical Terms

does not involve governments though. That would be an indirect link

a barbarian uprising might not be caused by the human player...

the human player, in fact, might not even notice it...

it is, in fact, caused by the second time something happens...

Try thinking in larger terms... it doesn't have anything to do with any particular city or any particular unit

It's not the second monarchy, it's not the second republic. Switching has been guessed, yet the game goes on...

The AI can cause 'a' barbarian uprising. Notice he did not say 'the'.. In fact, I've seen multiple. I've definitely had 3 or 4 stacks erupt around me on the same turn. I believe I have also had eruprions occur on more than one turn...

The second time something happens... hmmmm

Not related to a particular unit or city... hmmmm

Furthermore, a post regarding just turned to republic garnered a 'close but no cigar' reply...



What do barbarians want? Gold! I'd say it has something to do with the total amount of gold in all treasuries (perhaps reaching that point the second time), or the second time a significant amount of lump sum or gpt gold is transferred from one civ to another.

The barbs would then descend on the civs with the most gold. Hence, some players would not see them. Although a tech buyer such as myself would see them all the time.

How's that?

	10-07-2002 13:48									#116
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NYE - as good as any other idea, possible .

Yeah, a great treadjack, but if Soren did it, we gotta support this .

As for Meldor's suggestion, it's a three time no because:

quote: 1) Maybe the second time a civ government calapses into anarchy

Only Democracies can collapse, and by the point there's Democracy, no Barbarians are left.

quote: 2) The second time a any civ's capital is taken

City related... Soren said it's more global.

quote: 3) The second time a civ drops by more than 50% culture due to lost cities.

Culture can never drop for a civ, the only thing that can drop is the culture points per turn, but even that can never drop below 1.

	10-07-2002 15:15									#117
	Remove this text

Since uprisings are large stacks of horsemen, and horsemen are available only, after the first (or second?) civ has horseback riding, the "event" that triggers the uprising, must be tech tree related, namely to a tech/building/other event that is guaranteed to occur with or after horseback riding. What can that be?

	10-07-2002 15:21									#118
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: that is guaranteed to occur

Do you mean it happens every game? Don't think so. Maybe losing the Horse resource?

	10-07-2002 16:28									#119
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Gotta get the emphasis right. I didn't mean "guaranteed to occur after horseback riding" but "guaranteed to occur after horseback riding" (but not before).

	10-07-2002 16:31									#120
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Theseus and nye, that's not what I meant by asking whether anyone has seen multiple uprisings. I've definately seen that all camps spaw hordes in the same turn, but my question was whether anyone can remember if there were more of these turns. For instance in 1000BC you got hordes all over the place, and in 450 AD again. That would have it's implications on the triggers....

DeepO