04-07-2002 18:35									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I agree with you Cyber... but outlawing abortion is just wrong in principle, regardless of the circumstances.

The government cannot put laws on a woman's body... period.

	04-07-2002 18:37									#32
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Sava I agree with you Cyber... but outlawing abortion is just wrong in principle, regardless of the circumstances. The government cannot put laws on a woman's body... period.

The gov. puts laws on all of our bodies.

	04-07-2002 18:40									#33
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Oh sure the government can, Sava.
It's like the government should put more laws on the homes of priests, so they won't rape boys !

Or what about father who rape their own daughters inside their own bed ? Should we say in that case as well that the government cannot put laws on it ?

An embrio is living a seperate life inside the body of a woman. An embrio is not more or less dependant to the mother.

An embrio is the result of the actions of the mother.
Is't not like the embrio 'suddenly' popped out of nothing ignoring the will of the mother.

The mother is responsible for the helpless child that's inside her body. A child that's a result of the decisions made by herself.

	04-07-2002 18:40									#34
	Suffering from ads?

?? not quite... name one example.... if you're going to say drugs, you are in error. It isn't illegal to be on a drug (except for driving, etc.), it is illegal to possess/distribute/make drugs.

	04-07-2002 18:41									#35
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

A few facts to enlighten the discussion:

When does the unborn baby’s heart begin to beat?

The heartbeat begins between the eighteenth and twenty-fifth day.

When does the brain begin to function?

Electrical brain waves have been recorded as early as forty days.

How early can a baby survive outside the mother’ womb?

Currently, twenty weeks is considered the accepted minimum. However, this time will be reduced as medical technology continues to improve.

What about cases of rape and incest?

Pregnancy from rape is extremely rare. A study of one thousand rape victims who were treated after the rape reported no pregnancies. There are no known studies of incest cases. Medically, we know pregnancy in these cases would be rare. As reasons for legalizing abortion rape and incest are nothing more than emotional screens used by those profiting from abortion.

But what about the child with disease who will die a slow death or live his life as a burden to his family?

Do you believe the new “ethic” should be that we kill the suffering or burdensome? Some of these cases are tragic, some are also inspirational. We cannot assume the responsibility for killing an unborn child simply because the child has not yet been seen in public. The child’s place of residence does not change what abortion does - kill a human being.

	04-07-2002 18:41									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

You guys are boring me... you are wrong, and there's nothing you can say to change it.

have a nice day

	04-07-2002 18:42									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Lincoln A few facts to enlighten the discussion: When does the unborn baby’s heart begin to beat? The heartbeat begins between the eighteenth and twenty-fifth day. When does the brain begin to function? Electrical brain waves have been recorded as early as forty days. How early can a baby survive outside the mother’ womb? Currently, twenty weeks is considered the accepted minimum. However, this time will be reduced as medical technology continues to improve. What about cases of rape and incest? Pregnancy from rape is extremely rare. A study of one thousand rape victims who were treated after the rape reported no pregnancies. There are no known studies of incest cases. Medically, we know pregnancy in these cases would be rare. As reasons for legalizing abortion rape and incest are nothing more than emotional screens used by those profiting from abortion. But what about the child with disease who will die a slow death or live his life as a burden to his family? Do you believe the new “ethic” should be that we kill the suffering or burdensome? Some of these cases are tragic, some are also inspirational. We cannot assume the responsibility for killing an unborn child simply because the child has not yet been seen in public. The child’s place of residence does not change what abortion does - kill a human being.

When I say survive, I mean without being hooked up to machines.

	04-07-2002 18:45									#38
	Increase Your PM Length

I wouldn't want to be hooked up to a machine in order to survive either. But that decision should be left to the one it effects if possible.

	04-07-2002 18:45									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: You guys are boring me... you are wrong, and there's nothing you can say to change it. have a nice day

that's what I would say in your situation as well.
In fact it means: "I wanna do what I want but I don't want to face the concequences and I don't care about any arguments because I'm just the god of my own life and I do what I want to do and I don't care about the rest"

or, like the bible teaches us,
you decided to be autonomous, and make your own decisions about good and evil.

And it's because of this selfish human behavior that we are broken from God, and that's why children die in crash-accidents ! That's not because God is cruel, that's all because we people are selfish and want to decide on our own lives.

CyberShy

	04-07-2002 18:47									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: An Unborn Child is in Fact, Human

Na und?

	04-07-2002 18:58									#41
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy that's what I would say in your situation as well. In fact it means: "I wanna do what I want but I don't want to face the concequences and I don't care about any arguments because I'm just the god of my own life and I do what I want to do and I don't care about the rest" or, like the bible teaches us, you decided to be autonomous, and make your own decisions about good and evil. And it's because of this selfish human behavior that we are broken from God, and that's why children die in crash-accidents ! That's not because God is cruel, that's all because we people are selfish and want to decide on our own lives. CyberShy

Not all abortions are by people who were irresponsible with their sex life and just don't want to care for a child. In fact, most of society's problems could be solved if stupid people didn't have children. Talk shows parade this stupidity constantly. Sure, people shouldn't be having sex at 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17... and having children. But you aren't going to stop the cycle of bad parenting by outlawing one of the avenues that people can choose to prevent an irresponsible person from being in charge of a human life.

Who's being selfish here?

	04-07-2002 19:01									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy that's what I would say in your situation as well. In fact it means: "I wanna do what I want but I don't want to face the concequences and I don't care about any arguments because I'm just the god of my own life and I do what I want to do and I don't care about the rest" or, like the bible teaches us, you decided to be autonomous, and make your own decisions about good and evil. And it's because of this selfish human behavior that we are broken from God, and that's why children die in crash-accidents ! That's not because God is cruel, that's all because we people are selfish and want to decide on our own lives. CyberShy

Interesting.

I am against abortion but i don't believe in God. True; we people want to decide on our own life, but i see that as a good thing.
It's when carelessness creates a new life and hypocrisy permits that that life be ended legally that i disagree.

	04-07-2002 19:03									#43
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy And that's because it's not like it would never get a brain, it's because it won't get a brain because you kill it before it can get one.

By extension of your logic, then, it immoral for women to have periods, and masturbation is a deadly sin.

Furthermore, cutting yourself is not allowed. That kills many, many humans.

	04-07-2002 19:05									#44
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Like I said before... in a perfect world, I would be against the abortion of a child. But in a perfect world, you wouldn't need laws against it because it wouldn't happen. And speaking of hypocrisy... the same people who are against abortion are usually in support of the 2nd Amendment. If you want to save lives, supporting gun control would be a cause you should support. But yet again, conservatives are too selfish. They don't really care about saving lives, only their selfish moral beliefs.

	04-07-2002 19:15									#45
	Put an end to popups!

Speaking of hypocrisy, anti-abortionists firebombs clinic and shoot doctors.

	04-07-2002 19:18									#46
	Full PM-box? Change here!

- I'm totally pro gun control. I'm dutch, I'm not from the states with strange hypocrit ideas and morals. I agree with you that it's stupidous to forbit abortion but don't accept gun control.

- Sava, I agree that this world is sick. We do nothing to (at least overhere in The Netherlands) to teach teenagers the responsibilities that come with sex, but all we do is free the way for them to do what they want to do. I still disagree, pherhaps there are people who get children who're not responsible to have them, but even in that case you can make parents happy who want children but can't get them.

- Urban Ranger, silly excuse, because you talk about organisms that do not exist yet. I talk about organisms that actually do exist and which lives are cuted.

- Richelieu, deciding on your own life is a good thing, but not when everybody makes their own standards about good and evil, and that's actually the thing that makes a mess in this world.

	04-07-2002 19:19									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Speaking of hypocrisy, anti-abortionists firebombs clinic and shoot doctors.

you're right, those are hypocrits.
I completely am against all of this.

	04-07-2002 19:19									#48
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I don't bomb clinics or shoot doctors. And i'm not an American but i think gun control is a good thing.
And i still think abortion is wrong.

	04-07-2002 19:38									#49
	Support Apolyton

A hypocrite would also allow women to use morning-after-pills whilst denying them abortions. Looks like you qualify CyberShy!

	04-07-2002 19:50									#50
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The Morning afterpill does prevent conception.
It can't kill a phoetus.

	04-07-2002 20:00									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse quote: Anything that constitutes intentionally ending the life in a human being is murder Go get a law book.

That's exactly what pro-lifers are fighting against: The law.

	04-07-2002 20:13									#52
	Tired of ads?

For the pro-life folks:

Since you want to make abortion illegal, what should be the proper punishment for doing such a deed?

What should be done with pregnant women who want an abortion regardless of the law forbidding it?

	04-07-2002 20:16									#53
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Until the US begins to realistically address issues of sex and birth in our society, where sex is marketed like an opiate, abortion should remain legal. There is simply no way the current foster care system could handle the influx of unwanted or unintended children born into the system. Child Protection and Foster services are horrible enough as it is.

Plus if abortions were made illegal, a public health nightmare would ensue with women seeking out back-alley abortions. This would especially hurt the lower income and working class people who couldnt get safe "illegal" care or travel to Canada for a legit abortion.

	04-07-2002 20:22									#54
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

[

quote: Speaking of hypocrisy, anti-abortionists firebombs clinic and shoot doctors.

I strongly suspect that's nothing more than a troll. Clearly no non-trollish individual would say that because some pro-lifers firebomb clinics and shoot doctors, all pro-lifers do so (as implied by "anti-abortionists firebomb clinics and shoot doctors"), or that this has anything to do whatsoever with this debate.

	04-07-2002 20:29									#55
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Admit it Stefu, it was you bombing that clinic last week!

	04-07-2002 20:30									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy The Morning afterpill does prevent conception. It can't kill a phoetus.

Perhaps you should look at this site... you're more likely to beleive them than me

http://www.spuc.org.uk/map/dangers.htm

	04-07-2002 21:11									#57
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Abortionists have the unique ability to look into the future...

Don't forget they also argue against the human fetus becoming a person.

This shouldn't be an argument of whether a fetus is a human (which it obviously is), but rather a "person".

A person is a human with senitience. Sentience isn't required to be human.

	04-07-2002 21:18									#58
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger By extension of your logic, then, it immoral for women to have periods, and masturbation is a deadly sin. Furthermore, cutting yourself is not allowed. That kills many, many humans.

UR you always try to use this argument but it is weak.

The zygote will continue to develope into its further stages given TIME.

Sperm cells will not continue to devlope given TIME, no matter how long it sits there it won't turn into little Johnny or Susy.

	04-07-2002 22:00									#59
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: The zygote will continue to develope into its further stages given TIME.

Incorrect. It needs various resources that the mother must provide as well. Sperm cells only require more resources, namely an ovum.

Given time and the various resources they require, either a sperm cell or a zygote may turn into little Johnny or Susy.

	04-07-2002 22:06									#60
	Suffering from ads?

Yes but the zygote is a human organism that requires another human organism to develope further in its life cycle.

A sperm cell is not an organism as it does not devlope further.

Ramo biologicaly speaking a zygote is considered its own organism as TIME is the primary consideration.