04-07-2002 22:10									#61
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Stefu I strongly suspect that's nothing more than a troll. Clearly no non-trollish individual would say that because some pro-lifers firebomb clinics and shoot doctors, all pro-lifers do so (as implied by "anti-abortionists firebomb clinics and shoot doctors"), or that this has anything to do whatsoever with this debate.

1. "Anti-abortionists firebomb clinics and shoot doctors" is not the same as "All anti-abortionists firebomb clinics and shoot doctors." Consider the sentence "Men eat meat" as a comparison.

2. What this shows is hypocrisy on the part of anti-abortionists. They show all kinds of respect towards potential humans, but not actual humans.

	04-07-2002 22:12									#62
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

NA,

Not necessarily. Spontaneous abortions occur with a surprisingly high frequency. There is no gaurantee that any single zygote will become a human being.

Furthermore, there is no biological difference between a fertilised egg and any body cell.

Finally, Ramo is correct that an embryo requires external resources. Without external resources, time is of no import.

	04-07-2002 22:16									#63
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: A sperm cell is not an organism as it does not devlope further.

Sure it does - provided it has an ovum as well as various other resources.

quote: Ramo biologicaly speaking a zygote is considered its own organism as TIME is the primary consideration.

Nonetheless, time is not the only consideration.

If a zygote should be considered legally protected, so must sperm and ova.

	04-07-2002 22:19									#64
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger NA, Not necessarily. Spontaneous abortions occur with a surprisingly high frequency. There is no gaurantee that any single zygote will become a human being. Furthermore, there is no biological difference between a fertilised egg and any body cell.

True enough about the spontaneous abortion.

As to the egg there is a difference, a fertilized egg will continue to grow and devlope different cell structures, as other cells don't (emphasis on different). Also a fertilized egg has a unique DNA pattern. WHich is different from the mothers and the fathers. Where as the egg has a single gamete of the mothers, and the sperm a single gamete of the fathers. Thus the fusion of the two creates an organism which is FOREIGN to the mother.

A single zygote biologically is a human being. Not conisdered a person (no sentience yet). But still an individual.

	04-07-2002 22:20									#65
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Nope.... Euthenasia is not murder.

Sava, that's exactly what the Nazi said when they killed disabled people en masse.

	04-07-2002 22:26									#66
	Suffering from ads?

What difference does distinctive DNA make?

Am I justified in killing clones or twins? If I screw with the DNA in one of my cells, is the state justified in prosecuting me if I remove it?

quote: A single zygote biologically is a human being. Not conisdered a person (no sentience yet). But still an individual.

You're arguing semantics.

	04-07-2002 22:27									#67
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

In biological terms organisms are always studied in their natural environments.

A human at its fetal stages natural environment is in its mothers womb (dido with zygotes). Its dependecy on its mother doesn't change that it is a seperate organism.

Consider baking powder and vinegar. Baking powder by itself is inert, like a sperm. Vinegar by itself is inert, as is an ovum. Mix the two you have a reaction which can not be reversed, like the joining of the sperm and ovum, it can't be reversed.

	04-07-2002 22:32									#68
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ramo Sure it does - provided it has an ovum as well as various other resources. Nonetheless, time is not the only consideration. If a zygote should be considered legally protected, so must sperm and ova.

while the prolifers here are doing a good job I must respond to this (maybe someone else has later on)

you are wrong ramo because the Zygote has the genes of a human (which is what we define as human)

and neither the ovum nor sperm have the genes of a human independently

Jon Miller

	04-07-2002 22:34									#69
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Richelieu Right now the law allow abortion where you and i live, even though i don't agree with it.

But no one forces anyone to have an abortion. Anti-abortion laws force people who want to have one to not be able to have one.

At least, under safe, sterile clinic conditions...

Guess you all want the days of coathangers in alleyways back, huh?

While we're at it, let's repeal universal sufferage and get those women back in the kitchen where they belong...

	04-07-2002 22:36									#70
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Ramo What difference does distinctive DNA make? Am I justified in killing clones or twins? If I screw with the DNA in one of my cells, is the state justified in prosecuting me if I remove it? You're arguing semantics.

I'm trying to have people realize that abortion kills a human who hasn't devloped into a person. Not some biological non-entity.

Distinct DNA is obviously a recent revelation, and just another tool to identify an organism. (I know you know this)

	04-07-2002 22:37									#71
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: 1. "Anti-abortionists firebomb clinics and shoot doctors" is not the same as "All anti-abortionists firebomb clinics and shoot doctors." Consider the sentence "Men eat meat" as a comparison.

"Men eat meat" isn't inflammatory. Try "Men eat human meat". Or possibly "Atheists go to churches and shoot people" or "Black people riot and loot".

Also, since none of us is a clinic bomber, you're arguing with a ghost. Either you are saying something that everyone agrees with or you are trolling and trying to squirm out of it.

quote: 2. What this shows is hypocrisy on the part of anti-abortionists. They show all kinds of respect towards potential humans, but not actual humans.

To play devil's advocate, you could say that by bombing clinics and shooting doctors, they're trying to prevent what they see as murder.

	04-07-2002 22:45									#72
	Suffering from ads?

quote: In biological terms organisms are always studied in their natural environments. A human at its fetal stages natural environment is in its mothers womb (dido with zygotes). Its dependecy on its mother doesn't change that it is a seperate organism. Consider baking powder and vinegar. Baking powder by itself is inert, like a sperm. Vinegar by itself is inert, as is an ovum. Mix the two you have a reaction which can not be reversed, like the joining of the sperm and ovum, it can't be reversed.

You're arguing semantics.

quote: you are wrong ramo because the Zygote has the genes of a human (which is what we define as human) and neither the ovum nor sperm have the genes of a human independently

What difference does it make? What about, for instance, skin cells? They have genes of a human independently.

The point UR was addressing was that abortions are immoral because zygotes will become persons. Applying the same criteria, sperms and ova must also be protected.

quote: I'm trying to have people realize that abortion kills a human who hasn't devloped into a person.

Then masturbation is killing humans who haven't developed into a person.

	04-07-2002 22:50									#73
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Ramo The point UR was addressing was that abortions are immoral because zygotes will become persons. Applying the same criteria, sperms and ova must also be protected.

quit this stupid argument, it helps your position not at all

Zygotes fulfill two requirements

1 they have the genetics of a human

2 they will become human

sperm and ova do not share both these characteristics

Jon Miller

	04-07-2002 22:51									#74
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Ramo your ignoring what I am saying, and dismissing it as semantics.

I am arguing what can't be reversed versus what hasn't happened.

	04-07-2002 22:56									#75
	Support Apolyton

quote: quit this stupid argument,

Yes, the arguments anti-abortionists have made are indeed stupid.

quote: Zygotes fulfill two requirements 1 they have the genetics of a human

Why is this important?

quote: 2 they will become human sperm and ova do not share both these characteristics

Sperm and ova will become human provided they have the appropriate resources.

	04-07-2002 22:58									#76
	Inflate your Upload Space

i'm having fun agreeing about harry Potter so i won't argue here.

Consider yourselves blessed

	04-07-2002 23:00									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: I am arguing what can't be reversed versus what hasn't happened.

Why does reversing the process of becoming human have any bearing on what should have legal protections?

Besides, the zygote's development can be stopped by cutting off resources to it. If otherwise we wouldn't have any abortion argument in the first place.

	04-07-2002 23:03									#78
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

a childs devlopment would be stopped if we cut off resources to it.

i'm not talking about legal protection right now.

if you have no problem with killing humans at their fetal stage than, thats fine. Just don't try to sugar coat it to make it easier to digest.

	04-07-2002 23:07									#79
	Suffering from ads?

Yes, don't sugar-coat it next time you masturbate, you killer.

quote: a childs devlopment would be stopped if we cut off resources to it.

It's your argument, mind you. I was just showing how it's flawed.

	04-07-2002 23:10									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Ramo Yes, the arguments anti-abortionists have made are indeed stupid. Why is this important? Sperm and ova will become human provided they have the appropriate resources.

you just completely ignored my statement

you are not this stupid Ramo

and your question of why having the genetics of a human is important for the classification of it as human just shows how idiotic you are being

Jon Miller

	04-07-2002 23:11									#81
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Ramo Yes, don't sugar-coat it next time you masturbate, you killer. It's your argument, mind you. I was just showing how it's flawed.

no you are being purposefully dense

Jon Miller

	04-07-2002 23:11									#82
	Support Apolyton

uhm, how does this show my arguemnet is flawed? Wouldn't it strengthen it?

	04-07-2002 23:15									#83
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: you just completely ignored my statement you are not this stupid Ramo and your question of why having the genetics of a human is important for the classification of it as human just shows how idiotic you are being

I don't care if it's classified as a human or not. That's not what I'm arguing. That's a semantics arguments, and those bore me.

I'm arguing whether young fetuses should have legal protections and whether killing it is immoral.

	04-07-2002 23:20									#84
	Support Apolyton

we are arguing that killing humans is immoral

since the zygote is human gentically (ova and sperm are not)

and becomes (everyone agrees here) a human being

it is human

thus killing it is immoral

Jon Miller

	04-07-2002 23:21									#85
	Support Apolyton

BTW, I do think human zygotes are human, just as human skin cells or human

quote: uhm, how does this show my arguemnet is flawed? Wouldn't it strengthen it?

You've yet to demonstrate why reversing is relevant.

	04-07-2002 23:22									#86
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

that is at least the argument

I may be willing to go with a heart beat or brain waves (which would still limit abortion much more than now)

Jon Miller

	04-07-2002 23:23									#87
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Ramo You've yet to demonstrate why reversing is relevant.

Ask a women who is pregnant why reversing is relevant.

	04-07-2002 23:26									#88
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: since the zygote is human gentically (ova and sperm are not)

Again, why is this relevant?

quote: it is human thus killing it is immoral

More argument by semantics...

You have to demonstrate why this:
"since the zygote is human gentically (ova and sperm are not) " and "and becomes (everyone agrees here) a human being " implies this "thus killing it is immoral "

	04-07-2002 23:33									#89
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You're a mathemtician Jon, you ought to be a better logician than this.

You are asserting A & B -> C
But A !-> C
And B !-> C

You need something to back these assertions up.

	04-07-2002 23:34									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Ramo Again, why is this relevant?

because it shows why your statements that masturbation and periods are murder are ludicrous

Jon Miller