04-07-2002 23:35									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo You're a mathemtician Jon, you ought to be a better logician than this. You are asserting A & B -> C But A !-> C And B !-> C You need something to back these assertions up.

what is your diffinition of human?

can we agree that for something to be human it must be genetically human?

and I hope to not get into logic of that level

Jon Miller

	04-07-2002 23:36									#92
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so C -> B

(where C is human and B is human genetics)

Jon Miller

	04-07-2002 23:42									#93
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quote: An Unborn Child is in Fact, Human

Yes, in the sense that it is a cellular system containing the genome of a human...

...so is any cell derived from the human body, blood, skin...but on it's own, without a sophisticated nervous system and cognitive capability does not constitute an individual now. Semantics do not win you the argument...

	04-07-2002 23:42									#94
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quote: what is your diffinition of human? can we agree that for something to be human it must be genetically human?

Yes.

quote: so C -> B (where C is human and B is human genetics)

C in my example I consider being a "person" - an organism that is immoral to kill. A and B are human genetics and will become a human being.

	04-07-2002 23:44									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Woe to that logic, for it is not the mother's body that is at stake here (unless having the baby would put the mother's life in jeapordy), but the life of the unborn child.

...and the life of the mother who bears and rears that child. That is her decision, and it is no one else's right but her own whether she wants that foetus inside her, and is thus her right to abort that foetus, which is in real terms acting in a parasitic capacity...

	04-07-2002 23:45									#96
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quote: because it shows why your statements that masturbation and periods are murder are ludicrous

No, I was asking why being a human genetically is relevant to being considered to having legal rights.

	04-07-2002 23:45									#97
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OK

so we argee there

so then does C -> A?

Jon Miller

	04-07-2002 23:46									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo No, I was asking why being a human genetically is relevant to being considered to having legal rights.

currently, everyone who has legal rights is a human genetically

so it is worth refering to

I am attempting to make it clear

Jon Miller

	04-07-2002 23:52									#99
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I didn't agree that C->B. If a sentient alien lands here, I would consider it immoral and illegal to kill him.

quote: so then does C -> A?

I do not think so. I don't see it as relevant criteria. The only criteria I consider for warranting protection is development of the brain and nervous system.

	04-07-2002 23:54									#100
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fetus' develope the brain and nervous system very early in its development. Something like 8 weeks(?).

	04-07-2002 23:56									#101
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Ramo would it be immoral to remove assitance to a brain dead individual if we knew the brain was repairing itself and would be back to normal in say 4 months?

	05-07-2002 00:01									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo I didn't agree that C->B. If a sentient alien lands here, I would consider it immoral and illegal to kill him. I do not think so. I don't see it as relevant criteria. The only criteria I consider for warranting protection is development of the brain and nervous system.

hmm

you are not understanding me

are all things which are immoral to kill currently human

don't go on the stupid side tracks

and are all things which are currently immoral to kill such that they are immoral to kill in the future?

Jon Miller

	05-07-2002 00:01									#103
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quote: An Unborn Child is in Fact, Human

What did you think it was? Mango chutney?

	05-07-2002 00:21									#104
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well Ron your argument has left everyone speechless.

nope not Mango chutney but apparently an organ of the mothers.... (pure denial if you ask me)

	05-07-2002 00:23									#105
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Denial of what? Abortion is abortion, and whether you choose to view a 12-week foetus as human or not makes no odds as far as I can see.

	05-07-2002 00:23									#106
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Curious how no pro-lifer has replied to my questions...

	05-07-2002 00:25									#107
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that probably means that we all missed them in replying to others

that is the usual reason

repost them

Jon Miller

	05-07-2002 00:25									#108
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it is easier to take if one thinks that a fetus is an organ, a "non-entity", than as a seperate organism.

	05-07-2002 00:27									#109
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I'm a big fan of summing up the whole issue by quoting Bill Hicks' message to pro-lifers.

"You lose. Sorry. Get over it."

	05-07-2002 00:29									#110
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thats the silliest sum up I've seen RJ.

	05-07-2002 00:30									#111
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But brutally accurate, NA.

	05-07-2002 00:32									#112
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you know I don't even know if abortion should be illegal, but I would like it if people would stop trying to de-humanize the whole thing.

Our society has decided it is alright to kill humans before they have developed sentienience. Accept this. If you don't like it then rethink your stance. If you are okay with it then continue to be pro-choice. I don't like it so I am pro-life.

	05-07-2002 00:39									#113
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quote: Originally posted by November Adam Ramo would it be immoral to remove assitance to a brain dead individual if we knew the brain was repairing itself and would be back to normal in say 4 months?

...or you could say the same about someone who is asleep who is there, unconscious, but will wake up...

...of course it is not the same, this person is still there and will be still there and has a life, probably with dependents. It's a different matter entirely.

	05-07-2002 00:42									#114
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so you are saying that your right to life depends upon your quality life

that seounds really shallow to me

Jon miller

	05-07-2002 00:43									#115
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PH many people say they feel it is not immoral to unplug someone on a machine due to the sentience factor.

I was asking if the sentience would come back can you unplug the person?

Everything else is irrelevant. Unless your saying a person is as only allowed to live if they make an impact on society.

	05-07-2002 00:43									#116
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I am just examining that statement. I think it is the right of the mother to do what she wishes with her body.

	05-07-2002 00:45									#117
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Well, here are the questions Jon:

quote: Originally posted by Jaakko For the pro-life folks: Since you want to make abortion illegal, what should be the proper punishment for doing such a deed? What should be done with pregnant women who want an abortion regardless of the law forbidding it?

	05-07-2002 00:48									#118
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so it is the right of the killer to do what he wishes with his body

even murder

(yah, this is not good debate but Ramo disappeared and the proabortion crowd is not debating so why should I?)

Jon Miller

	05-07-2002 00:49									#119
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Sometimes I wonder whether slavery arguments followed this general pattern.

Abolitionist: Slavery is evil.
Slaveocrat: You abolitionists just want to meddle with owner's right to decide what he wants to do with his plantation. MY PLANTATION, MY CHOICE!
Abolitionist: Yes, but you shouldn't hold human beings as slaves.
Slaveocrat: Yes, but what does human being mean? Certainly you don't mean that Negroes are like us whites. *pulls out a "study" that "scientifically" proves black people are equivalent of monkeys* See? Since Negroes aren't humans, you shouldn't meddle with our right to own animate property.
Abolitionist: Slavery is a crime against humanity.
Slaveocrat: Well, it's obviously not criminal to own slaves, so it's not a crime.
Abolitionist: People should be free, because...
Slaveocrat: Free? FREE? How can abolitionists speak of freedom when they don't support the right to own animate property? All you abolitionists are like John Brown, killing people for sake of animate property! YOU ARE WRONG! YOU ARE WRONG!
Abolitionist: But...
Slaveocrat: YOU ARE WRONG! Think about it - if we end right to own animate property, who does it hurt? The poor white people who have to compete with freed animate property, and who can't climb out of their poverty via traditional way of owning animate property! Abolitionists want us to be like up North, where capitalists treat white people like trash!
Abolitionist: Well, no...
Slaveocrat: AND ANOTHER THING! If we put forth the abolition, then the Negroes will just run around and go killing white people! Some freedom-lovers - you just want people KILLED! You just want to infringe on people's right to own property, you TYRANTS! Such hypocrisy!
Abolitionist: I don't think that's...
Slaveocrat: And another thing! Even your beloved Negro will suffer! Owning of animate property will undoubtedly continue in another form, like tenant farming, but because there no longer is bond between slave and his owner, Negroes will be brutalized, both by their masters and poor whites angry at end of slavery! There will be lynchings! Worse than slavery, any day!
Slaveocrat: Let me now demonstrate how stupid the abolitionist position is! If we take it to logical conclusion, soon we will take Orang-Utans out of jungles and give them vote and let them marry white women! Do you abolitionists support THAT? Do you? Do you?

...et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseaum...

	05-07-2002 00:53									#120
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Jaako

I want you to answer these questions

whhat should be done about murders? (if say their wish to murder is becuase the person they murdered was making their life miserable or something)

what shold be done with those who want to murder despite the law forbiding it? (same reason for the wish in this case as above)

good post Stefu

Jon Miller