04-07-2002 17:33									#1
	An Unborn Child is in Fact, Human Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

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	04-07-2002 17:35									#2
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Until a fetus is viable, it is merely an organ of the mother's own body.

	04-07-2002 17:37									#3
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KH

Cloud9

	04-07-2002 17:37									#4
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Yeah, sure it's human, what else would it be? That doesn't mean its mother shouldn't call the shots on what's happening with her own body.

	04-07-2002 17:39									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Monk Yeah, sure it's human, what else would it be? That doesn't mean its mother shouldn't call the shots on what's happening with her own body.

Well, with that logic, if the mother called the shots, it would constitute murder.

	04-07-2002 17:40									#6
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Its the mothers body and it's her dicision as to weither or not she has it.

	04-07-2002 17:40									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Well, with that logic, if the mother called the shots, it would constitute murder.

Nope.... Euthenasia is not murder. And that's what abortion is.... euthenasia.

	04-07-2002 17:42									#8
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KH, I'd agree with you - I'd belive you me, I find that fact as incredible as you do. Still, by this definition it's only a question of time before abortion becomes illegal as we push the boundaries of post-natal medicine to save younger and younger babies.

Over here, amendments to our abortion laws have been discussed, as ab is allowed unconditionally till week 20, while we are now able to save those born on week 21 on routine basis. This can only get "better" when we get uterine replicators.

	04-07-2002 17:43									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Deathwalker Its the mothers body and it's her dicision as to weither or not she has it.

Woe to that logic, for it is not the mother's body that is at stake here (unless having the baby would put the mother's life in jeapordy), but the life of the unborn child.

	04-07-2002 17:43									#10
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Well, with that logic, if the mother called the shots, it would constitute murder.

It doesn't matter the slightest which label you choose to apply.

	04-07-2002 17:45									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Nope.... Euthenasia is not murder. And that's what abortion is.... euthenasia.

Anything that constitutes intentionally ending the life in a human being is murder.

	04-07-2002 17:46									#12
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If it's a uterine replicator then it's not yet an independent organism either.

Christ, I'd allow abortions to end of 2nd trimester, even though some are already able to pull through if born prior to that...

	04-07-2002 17:46									#13
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quote: Anything that constitutes intentionally ending the life in a human being is murder

Go get a law book.

	04-07-2002 17:48									#14
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Personally, I don't care about the human bodies, it's the mind that matters. You don't get a functioning mind (what could be called sentience) until the third trimestre, so anything before that... pfffrp.

	04-07-2002 17:49									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Anything that constitutes intentionally ending the life in a human being is murder.

Nope... not in the eyes of God. If an animal is in pain and you end its life, that is not murder. If a human being is in pain and you end its life, that is not murder. Try reading the bible more. The commandment doesn't say "Thou shall not kill"... if says "Thou shall not murder". I know you want to get on your high horse and ride this moral crusade, Cloud9. Unfortunately, you are wrong. And every theologin would agree with me.

The need for abortion is simple. If a child is going to grow up in an environment without love, especially where it is unwanted, it would live a life of pain and emotional turmoil. It is more humane to spare that existence. A soul isn't automatically created at conception. It grows and develops in time.

	04-07-2002 17:53									#16
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OK

I know a lot of people who grow up in crappy environments

and they are glad that they lived (usually)

and if they are not we tell them they should be (which I think is right)

so that argument isn't right

Jon Miller

	04-07-2002 17:56									#17
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But in general, can you agree that it is more humane to kill in order to prevent suffering?

	04-07-2002 17:58									#18
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse If it's a uterine replicator then it's not yet an independent organism either.

It rather depends on what you put into the word "viable", no? If we disallow considerations for medical intervention, it logically follows it's be OK to off anybody who needs - say - a respirator after a traffic accident as well.

And I don't think that's your position, excately.

quote: Christ, I'd allow abortions to end of 2nd trimester, even though some are already able to pull through if born prior to that...

I'm not so sure. I think abs before we could save them are quite all right, but the selectivity in choosing whether something is a lump of flesh or a human being not on medical merits but on what someone else thinks is a bit tough for me to swallow.

	04-07-2002 17:59									#19
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we all suffer in life

you would need a strong case that much suffering would occur

and none of the things that make life worthwhile would

there are a lot of people who were really screwed with their birth, but have a better life (to my eyes) than many who were born without birth defects to good homes

Jon Miller

	04-07-2002 18:04									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Sava But in general, can you agree that it is more humane to kill in order to prevent suffering?

You're not killing to prevent suffering but the possibility of suffering. You don't know what's going to happen to this kid.

	04-07-2002 18:14									#21
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Abortionists have the unique ability to look into the future...

	04-07-2002 18:16									#22
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quote: If a child is going to grow up in an environment without love, especially where it is unwanted, it would live a life of pain and emotional turmoil.

Father,relatives, adoption the above comment is a lame excuse.

Some people treat human life these days like and old shirt. You don't want it you just toss it away. I mean who cares it's mine anyways.

Lincoln, too true...

	04-07-2002 18:19									#23
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All right all right, bad example.

	04-07-2002 18:19									#24
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Pro-Lifers have the unique ability to put laws on other people.

	04-07-2002 18:22									#25
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Right now the law allow abortion where you and i live, even though i don't agree with it.

	04-07-2002 18:23									#26
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quote: An Unborn Child is in Fact, Human

And so is a human toenail clipping, glob of saliva, discarded skin cell etc.

The relevant issue is whether a fetus is a human being, a "person".

Personhood implies personality, which requires intelligence. Which requires a brain.

	04-07-2002 18:26									#27
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I think the definition of human being should be dependent upon the ability to survive as an organism outside the mother. A fetus cannot survive outside the womb.

	04-07-2002 18:26									#28
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I think everybody is free to chose.
- You are free to chose to have sex or not
- you are free to chose to use the anti conception pill
- you are free to chose to use a rubber
- you are free to chose to use the morning-after pill

If you had that much to chose, and you made that much choises...... then accept the concequences. :doitnow:

If you had no choises (you were raped or something) I think you abortion should be an option.

But it should not be like "We live the unresponsible life and we destroy all the things we don't like as a result"

Thus: you're free to chose, but accept the concequences.

	04-07-2002 18:31									#29
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quote: The relevant issue is whether a fetus is a human being, a "person". Personhood implies personality, which requires intelligence. Which requires a brain.

and of course you can come with multiple bad excuses to defend your imoral way of life, and remove all the things you don't like in live.
It's a pretty bad excuse my friend.

And that's because it's not like it would never get a brain, it's because it won't get a brain because you kill it before it can get one.

	04-07-2002 18:32									#30
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy I think everybody is free to chose. - You are free to chose to have sex or not - you are free to chose to use the anti conception pill - you are free to chose to use a rubber - you are free to chose to use the morning-after pill If you had that much to chose, and you made that much choises...... then accept the concequences. :doitnow: If you had no choises (you were raped or something) I think you abortion should be an option. But it should not be like "We live the unresponsible life and we destroy all the things we don't like as a result" Thus: you're free to chose, but accept the concequences.

Exactly!!!