06-07-2002 02:26									#121
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It's much more fun just running through the levels and finish the whole game in 2 days, huh?

Lack of difficulty is basically what made Luigi's Mansion a mediocre game instead of a Nintendo classic.

	06-07-2002 02:27									#122
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But Super Monkey Ball is good fun, believe me. The multi-player games, like Monkey Billiards, are extremely good fun (three cheers for multi-player gaming! ).

	06-07-2002 02:28									#123
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Juggernaut: Nonsense.

How about...long gameplay. Halo takes about 40 hours to beat on Legendary.

NWN takes 40+ hours to finish.

Morrowind takes 200+ hours.

All of these don't take so long because they force you to do the same level 800 times, they do it because they're great games with lots of content.

Stuff like Metroid Prime (with a stated 7 hour gameplay time...) can only get more replay value out of cranking up the difficulty to the point of it being "impossible" so the masochist perfectionists keep playing even though it stopped being fun long ago.

	06-07-2002 02:29									#124
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And another thing: why is it that none of the big three console makers seems to care about the European market? Europe has the largest population out of the three big markets, so shouldn't it eventually become the largest and most profitable market?

	06-07-2002 02:30									#125
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For some reason or another, Europeans don't buy games and consoles as much as North Americans or Japanese. Plus all of the language barrier and weird laws and taxes on imports raise costs.

	06-07-2002 02:33									#126
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Well, I can figure the language barrier might add to problems (is this part of the reason why games are almost always released last in Europe?), but the costs aren't greatly different to those I've seen in the US.

	06-07-2002 02:34									#127
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An example was Sony having to withdraw the PSX shipments from some European country because some of the wires contained a material banned in that country (forget the details). This was like 1-2 years ago.

Europe is weird.

Also, for some reason or another, Canada gets all of the stuff first & cheap.

Like PS2 and Xbox are $299CDN (~$185 US) here, and they're $199US in the US.

Games are like $70CDN, which is $43US...$50US in the states.

I'm not complaining. Same deal with CDs and DVDs.

	06-07-2002 02:36									#128
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We're perfectly normal, and you know it.

	06-07-2002 02:36									#129
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Well, erhm, playing the same level again and again is basically what platformers are all about. The feeling when beating a level you've struggled with for 6 hours is unequable. How fun would it be to just have more levels but all are fairly easy? Talk about a sleeping pill...

And comparing RPGs to platformers is just stupid. Those have clearly different objectives and consequently different playing appeals.

	06-07-2002 02:40									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Juggernaut Well, erhm, playing the same level again and again is basically what platformers are all about. The feeling when beating a level you've struggled with for 6 hours is unequable. How fun would it be to just have more levels but all are fairly easy? Talk about a sleeping pill...

Try Halo on Legendary. Not "easy", but not frustratingly difficult to being called "impossible".

They make it harder, not by modifying level design or lowering restrictions or increasing damage dealt to you, but by massively incrementing the AI to be smarter in each level.

In legendary they actually start doing group tactics, trying to flank you, ducking behind crates and tossing grenades, trying to sneak up behind you and hit you in the back of the neck with the butt of their rifles...

quote: And comparing RPGs to platformers is just stupid. Those have clearly different objectives and consequently different playing appeals.

I was under the impression that Super Monkey Ball is a party game more than anything else, not a platformer.

	06-07-2002 16:32									#131
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Asher, your statements on the quality and quantity of XBox games is based on the NA market. Not all those games have been released in Europe yet, nor will they all. Currently, the XBox doesn't have much appeal to me. No racer to beat GT3, no RPG to beat FFX, no fighter to beat VF4. Sure, that may change someday, but until that day happends there's little point in buying a bulky XBox. And most here agree with me, that's why XBox sales are so low in Europe. Sure Halo is cool, but fans of shooters play their games on the PC. Some other games are nice as well, but until they got a good racer, fighter and RPG, few here in Europe will be buying a XBox anytime soon.

	06-07-2002 22:35									#132
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Suit yourself, but if there's one thing the Xbox does have is lots of good racers:

Rallisport Challenge is the best Rally racer (don't even get me started on Colin McRae)
Project Gotham is the best arcade racer.
MotoGP is the best motorcycle racer
And if the E3 impressions and previews are to be believed, SegaGT 2002 will be the best "simulation" racer. Especially after the free SegaGT Online booster disc is out and you can race the cars online against friends...

What don't get is your logic that you won't buy another console until they have games that beat Game A, Game B, and Game C? There are awesome games on the Xbox, more than the Gamecube if the IGN reviews are to be believed (your "not out in Europe thing" is bull...all of those games are in PAL).

Why did you buy the Gamecube if it doesn't have any of those categories you listed satisfied, and it has even less "good games" out?

Edit: Oh, and BTW: VF4 sucks ass. Read the previews for Tao Feng and Kakuto Chojin. VF4 isn't anything new compared to the same old games you've been playing for years...

As for RPGs, MS is giving millions of dollars to Koei of Japan to develop a FFX-like RPG, but that remains shrouded in mystery. And if you want a good real RPG, Morrowind kicks FFX's ass in every possible way. FFX is so linear it basically holds your hand the whole way... I never liked console-style RPGs for that reason.

Last edited by Asher on 06-07-2002 at 22:46

	06-07-2002 23:30									#133
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there are different types of RPGs

I play FFX when I feel like that type and Morrowind when I feel like the other type

Jon Miller

	06-07-2002 23:33									#134
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I only play on NES, SNES and old skool grey Gameboy. I also have my PC. I don't need GC, Xbox, or PS1/2.

	06-07-2002 23:33									#135
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The only decent game out for Xbox in Europe is Halo. The rest are ****.

	06-07-2002 23:36									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Juggernaut The only decent game out for Xbox in Europe is Halo. The rest are ****.

Honestly, can you make it any more obvious that you've never played the majority of those games?

	07-07-2002 00:12									#137
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I always wondered why gamers got so bent out of shape over the "console wars".

I bought a PS2 because it allows me to play a number of unique Japanese style games I wouldn't get to play otherwise (Gitaroo man anybody?)

I passed on an XBOX because most of the games that looked to be worth buying were getting dual releases anyway. I regret not being able to play JSR:F, but that's about it up to this point.

I'm considering a GC, because Nintendo does a great job on its "core" franchises. Metroid has always featured 7 hour gameplay, as part of the game is the race to beat the game in under 2 hours for the special "naked samus" ending.

Anyway, the point is that people shouldn't be so judgemental in defending their console of choice. In this generation it seems each has its own strengths and weaknesses, with no clear victor.

	07-07-2002 00:51									#138
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Also, the system is in dire straits in Japan and Europe and faces an uncertain future.

That's one of the reason why I don't own a X-box right now. Microsoft may decide to pull a Sega on us and abandon the X-box. I'll wait and see...

	07-07-2002 02:39									#139
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo That's one of the reason why I don't own a X-box right now. Microsoft may decide to pull a Sega on us and abandon the X-box. I'll wait and see...

Sega bailed because it was woefully in debt.
MS is the richest (and largest) company in the world, and one quick look at their history shows that they're extremely arrogant/persistent in everything they do.

They've already sunk billions of dollars into the Xbox, they're already designing the Xbox^2, they're spending billions of dollars on Xbox Live and additional marketing/game development costs.

None of the three are likely to pull out of the market right now. Out of the three the most likely would probably be Nintendo, since it's always been their software franchises carrying the company rather than actual console design.

MS is getting better third party support than Nintendo, better first party support than Sony, and has hundreds of games (literally) in development for the Xbox. Look at the release calender...it's not going anywhere anytime soon.

	07-07-2002 02:51									#140
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quote: Rallisport Challenge is the best Rally racer (don't even get me started on Colin McRae) Project Gotham is the best arcade racer. MotoGP is the best motorcycle racer And if the E3 impressions and previews are to be believed, SegaGT 2002 will be the best "simulation" racer. Especially after the free SegaGT Online booster disc is out and you can race the cars online against friends...

Rally is boring
Arcade racing is stupid
Motorcycle racing is alright, but I rather drive cars
SegaGT won't be out for another year or so in Europe. By that time, GT4 will almost hit the markets.

quote: What don't get is your logic that you won't buy another console until they have games that beat Game A, Game B, and Game C?

Cause there are no good games out on the XBox that I would like to play. Sure Halo is great, but shooters suck. I buy consoled to play racing games, RPGs and fighters. GT3 is the best racer out there, FFX the best RPG, and VF4 the best fighter (haven't played the console version of T4 yet though).

quote: Why did you buy the Gamecube if it doesn't have any of those categories you listed satisfied, and it has even less "good games" out?

Childhood sentiment. And the pricetag (which was then a fair bit lower than the XBox's)

quote: Oh, and BTW: VF4 sucks ass. Read the previews for Tao Feng and Kakuto Chojin. VF4 isn't anything new compared to the same old games you've been playing for years...

Oh really? Here it's been hailed as the best fighter ever. And it's better than TTT (the best fighter up to then). I've only played T4 in the arcades though, I'll have to see how the console version will hold up.

quote: As for RPGs, MS is giving millions of dollars to Koei of Japan to develop a FFX-like RPG, but that remains shrouded in mystery. And if you want a good real RPG, Morrowind kicks FFX's ass in every possible way. FFX is so linear it basically holds your hand the whole way... I never liked console-style RPGs for that reason.

Millions of dollars in a RPG that remains a mystery. Yes, a good reason to buy an XBox huh?

And Morrowind? Isn't that a PC game? Also, I believe FFXI will be released pretty soon. I still haven't finished FFX yet though.

quote: Also, the system is in dire straits in Japan and Europe and faces an uncertain future.

My thoughts exactly.

Besides, Asher wants to convince me I should buy an XBox in the hope better and more games will come out. Well, may be, but I'll wait till those games get here, alonh with a possible pricecut in the price of the system.

	07-07-2002 03:01									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Rally is boring Arcade racing is stupid Motorcycle racing is alright, but I rather drive cars SegaGT won't be out for another year or so in Europe. By that time, GT4 will almost hit the markets.

How do you figure? GT: Concept and SegaGT 2002 are due out within months of eachother, GT4 is way off.

quote: Cause there are no good games out on the XBox that I would like to play. Sure Halo is great, but shooters suck. I buy consoled to play racing games, RPGs and fighters. GT3 is the best racer out there, FFX the best RPG, and VF4 the best fighter (haven't played the console version of T4 yet though).

I think the "no good games" idea is more self-inflicted than anything else. All of the platforms have good games to play, only people who haven't looked into it or are blatantly lying would say such a thing...

quote: Oh really? Here it's been hailed as the best fighter ever. And it's better than TTT (the best fighter up to then). I've only played T4 in the arcades though, I'll have to see how the console version will hold up.

It is one of the better fighters, but the game is absolutely nothing new. It's VF3 repackaged with "better" graphics. Although the aliasing is so horrible I can't play it on my bigscreen HDTV, and need to haul the PS2 upstairs to play it on my 25" screen.

quote: And Morrowind? Isn't that a PC game?

You obviously know a lot about the Xbox lineup, and this explain why you made your comment about "no good games". It's amazing when you don't find anything when you don't look, isn't it?

Morrowind is out on the PC and Xbox, but very few people have PCs that can adequately run the game. Plus it's a personal preference to play layed back on the couch with a controller versus hunched over a computer monitor...

quote: Also, I believe FFXI will be released pretty soon. I still haven't finished FFX yet though.

I guess you haven't heard the bad news about FFXI?

It sucks. IIRC, 76,000 people bought it in Japan. That's where FF is an insane franchise...

quote: Besides, Asher wants to convince me I should buy an XBox in the hope better and more games will come out.

There is absolutely no shortage of games coming out for the Xbox. It's going to have over twice the selection of Gamecube games by December, it has 80 games now while GC has 45.

I think it's just a shame so many people are missing out on awesome games because they're such a console loyalist.

	07-07-2002 03:13									#142
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quote: I think the "no good games" idea is more self-inflicted than anything else

I didn't say "no good games". I said "no good games I would like to play". Halo is a good game, but I wouldn't want to play it.

quote: You obviously know a lot about the Xbox lineup, and this explain why you made your comment about "no good games". It's amazing when you don't find anything when you don't look, isn't it?

Morrowind isn't even out here yet!

	07-07-2002 03:15									#143
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On Morrowind, isn't that entirely played online? I'm not going to play online games on my console, that's for sure. Way too expensive. And that's not what I got my consoles for.

	07-07-2002 03:17									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus I didn't say "no good games". I said "no good games I would like to play". Halo is a good game, but I wouldn't want to play it.

It's the same difference. There are plenty of good games I'm sure you'd actually play, if you looked into the lineup which it's obvious you haven't done really.

quote: Morrowind isn't even out here yet!

Blame Ubi Soft.

quote: On Morrowind, isn't that entirely played online? I'm not going to play online games on my console, that's for sure. Way too expensive. And that's not what I got my consoles for.

Morrowind is 100% single-player.

	07-07-2002 03:27									#145
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quote: It's the same difference. There are plenty of good games I'm sure you'd actually play, if you looked into the lineup which it's obvious you haven't done really.

I see what is out in the stores. And yeah, there are games I would play if I had an XBox, but none are good enough to spend 300 euro on to buy the console. And those games that are good enough to spend that much on, aren't my style (like Halo).

And Morrowind? If it's really that good, and MS drops the price of the XBox to 200 euro (price of the GC), then I just might go for it.

Though Gamespot only gives Morrowind an 8.5 out of 10, while FFX got 9.3 out of 10.

And on fighters: VF4 got a 9.3, DOA3 a 7.9, TTT a 9.6

	07-07-2002 03:33									#146
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Eternal Darkness Metroid Prime Turok Evolution Lost Kingdoms

Don't forget Super Monkey Ball!

	07-07-2002 03:37									#147
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Note to self: Read entire thread before posting about Super Monkey Ball.

Well, Super Monkey Ball 2 will be out soon!

	07-07-2002 04:58									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Sixchan Now, all I have to do is assemble a crack team of Zelda fans, get a helicopter and invade the NOJ HQ and FORCE them to un cel-shade Zelda.

Nooooooo! I want that cel-shaded look, damnit!

Rogue Squadron is a real disappointment. The last Star Wars game I played before that was X-Wing Alliance and XWA just blows Rogue Squadron out of the wat...vacuum? Whatever, X-Wing Alliance is great, Rogue Squadron ain't.

Super Smash Bros. Melee is amazing, though. Great looker, insane four-player action, and Mario is actually a really good character (unlike in, say, Mario Tennis, when he was outclassed by Baby Mario). In fact, the only character I actively dislike isn't really one character, but two: the Ice Climbers. So confusing...

Super Monkey Ball is another top multi-player game. Loads of modes, my personal favourite is Monkey Target but they're all good, and it's sponsored by a banana company.

Saint Marcus: I haven't tried the X-Box version, but Morrowind is bloody fantastic.

	07-07-2002 05:06									#149
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Forum ate my reply to Asher .

Summary: short games aren't necessarily bad, long games aren't necessarily good, and playing the same level multiple times can be fun, unless you really don't like, e.g., deathmatching.

	07-07-2002 05:11									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Though Gamespot only gives Morrowind an 8.5 out of 10, while FFX got 9.3 out of 10.

I really do think FFX was highly overrated. It has awesome graphics (for PS2), and great cinematics, but the gameplay is the exact same it's always been. Final Finatasy has officially become a "serial" game, when people automatically buy it and give it high ratings based on the name, rather than on the game itself.

I will admit my rating system is different than most people's. For sequels, they get an automatic mark disadvantage because they have to prove to me they're improving on the game. I'm not very appreciative of games that remain the same for 10 versions but change the plot slightly in each one, and people keep gobbling them up...

quote: And on fighters: VF4 got a 9.3, DOA3 a 7.9, TTT a 9.6

Yep, there's still no excellent fighters on the Xbox. But both Tao Feng and KG look absolutely brilliant, and will give us a positively fresh breath into the tired genre. I mean, motion-captured moves, limb damage affecting gameplay, bruising and bleeding as the game progresses, on top of the new "damage" system (there's two different levels of damage, and one carries over from round to round, etc).

Anyway, it's looking really good.
I'm really happy with my situation: I've got Xbox and PS2 right now, and get to play the good games on both of them (Xbox is getting far more attention than the PS2, though). I'm most likely going to get a Gamecube when it drops to $99US and also when all of these first-party Nintendo games that were promised come out.