04-07-2002 21:09									#1
	A note of thanks to the USA from one of the more grateful Europeans. Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...1-2002Jul2.html




May the United States continue to promote freedom and democracy in this world. I hope all the anti-US trolls can take this day to reflect on all the good the USA has done for the world instead of rambling anti-US propoganda and spouting anti-US conspiracy theories.

	04-07-2002 21:13									#2
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Fat chance.

	04-07-2002 21:22									#3
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I'm thankful to America for many things, but it doesn't include whiney or self-aggrandising trolls.

Boy, I'm going to piss off everyone today.

	04-07-2002 21:31									#4
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Thank you, Shi.

	04-07-2002 21:33									#5
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Thanks Shi. I must say though, I can understand some of the resentment. It is not a virtue to gloat. I think it was Chruchill who reminded us to be magnanimus in victory. No one likes a bragger. It should be humbling to be an American. We should never take the favor that was placed upon this nation for granted. My father fought in Normandy and in the Pacific and my uncle died trying to save Europe. May he rest in peace along with the thousands of likeminded people who thought that friends in need were indeed, friends.

	04-07-2002 21:35									#6
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Somehow, I can't add to that Lincon.

	04-07-2002 22:08									#7
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May all who died to defend the freedom that was proclaimed this day rest in peace and enjoy the mercy of God.

	04-07-2002 22:19									#8
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I doubt you are qualified to speak about freedom Shi, considering your love and affection for oppresive regimes such as Turkey.

I'm sure those Americans who indeed died for freedom do not consider people like you as their representative.

	04-07-2002 22:24									#9
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Uh oh. Here we go...

	04-07-2002 22:24									#10
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From the article:

quote: Allies such as France and Great Britain and former enemies such as Germany and Japan benefited greatly from America's generosity and support in their time of need...

How much do you think Britain really benefited from America joining the war?

There the expectation that Britain should be grateful to the US for being an ally against the Germans, but the US should not be grateful to Britain? The logic seems to be that the US 'saved Britain's skin', which is absolute nonsense.

The US gained far more out of the war than anyone else did....

quote: The United States, by joining Great Britain as it faced alone the greater might of Nazi Germany, and at enormous sacrifice of young American lives, saved European civilization and its values.

Britain sacrificed a lot more than the US to fight the nazis but that always seems to be forgotten.

	04-07-2002 22:28									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh How much do you think Britain really benefited from America joining the war? Britain sacrificed a lot more than the US to fight the nazis but that always seems to be forgotten.

What you seem to forget is just how bad you were doing before America joined the war

	04-07-2002 22:30									#12
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RJ:

Without American help, Britain would have lost to Germany, period.

No one is denying that America didn't benefit from the war, or that Britain didn't make greater sacrifices. The point of the article is that American help was indispensible. So was British strength. They worked together to fight a great evil.

Let's stop the false dichotomies of "It was all us!"

	04-07-2002 22:34									#13
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IIRC, Churchill was overjoyed at the news of the attack on Pearl Harbor.

	04-07-2002 22:38									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Without American help, Britain would have lost to Germany, period.

Bullsh!t! On a number of levels.

First of all, after the Battle of Britain, Germany had basically given up on invading the UK.

Secondly, Britain would have had no problem negotiating a peace treaty with the Nazis, if it had wanted to, which would have left Britain with a lot more of its empire than the eventual outcome of the war did.

Finally, it was the Russians who defeated the Germans - not the US.


I think it is probably true that the world would have been a worse place today without the influence of the US. But it is a closer call than you would imagine - the US has been a force of unspeakable evil as well as good over the years.

And with the current 'War on Terrorism', it is looking like you are really trying to tip the scales.....

(This is not to say that the British were any better of course - they have been just as evilly imperialistic, but two wrongs and all....)

	04-07-2002 22:42									#15
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Everyone always underestimates the Russians.

The Americans were simply pansies who don't like joining in the real wars until they're almost won, then steal the victory. Canada was in them both from the start. Let that be a lesson to you.

	04-07-2002 22:44									#16
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Hmm, so the logic here seems to be that it's best to wait until your allies have been clobbered due to lack of help, and then come 'rescue' them so you can get the bragging rights.

	04-07-2002 22:45									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Without American help, Britain would have lost to Germany, period.

Stalemate would be far more likely.

Followed by collapse of the reich from within and in no small part due to occupied nations concerted efforts for freedom.

	04-07-2002 22:47									#18
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You'll have to forgive us for not wanting to jump feet first into another senseless, preventable European war. It isn't like the British and French couldn't have prevented the war to begin with.

	04-07-2002 22:49									#19
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True, but then its not like the US couldn't have prevented the attack on 11/9 to begin with.

	04-07-2002 22:49									#20
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quote: Finally, it was the Russians who defeated the Germans - not the US.

lets pretend for a moment that the US never helped. Russia would probably have lost stalingrade or Japan would have invaded Russia. If Japan Invaded the USSR they would have had their second front, be careful what you wish for. Britain could not have landed at Normandy on it's own. I am positive without the US keeping the Japs occupied they would have hit the USSR and the USSR would have failed to defeat the Axis.

	04-07-2002 22:49									#21
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When will we see Americans thanking 'Europe' for their entire existence?

	04-07-2002 22:50									#22
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thanx Shi.

	04-07-2002 22:50									#23
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quote: Originally posted by SKILORD lets pretend for a moment that the US never helped. Russia would probably have lost stalingrade or Japan would have invaded Russia. If Japan Invaded the USSR they would have had their second front, be careful what you wish for. Britain could not have landed at Normandy on it's own. I am positive without the US keeping the Japs occupied they would have hit the USSR and the USSR would have failed to defeat the Axis.

Japan attacked the USSR in the 1930s, 1936(?), and the Japanese retreated hastily after heavy casualties. That is one of the reasons Japan never helped the Germans later in the war

	04-07-2002 22:53									#24
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Ahhh, nothing like a US-Euro bar fight to cheer up a 4th of July!

Go get 'em lads!

	04-07-2002 22:53									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin True, but then its not like the US couldn't have prevented the attack on 11/9 to begin with.

It isn't entirely a comparable set of circumstances.

	04-07-2002 22:58									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman When will we see Americans thanking 'Europe' for their entire existence?

When hell freezes over & up is down!

Anyways, who's to say that if Europe never existed, that the Native Americans could have created a civilization far more advanced than any today?

	04-07-2002 22:59									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Bullsh!t! On a number of levels. First of all, after the Battle of Britain, Germany had basically given up on invading the UK. Secondly, Britain would have had no problem negotiating a peace treaty with the Nazis, if it had wanted to, which would have left Britain with a lot more of its empire than the eventual outcome of the war did. Finally, it was the Russians who defeated the Germans - not the US. I think it is probably true that the world would have been a worse place today without the influence of the US. But it is a closer call than you would imagine - the US has been a force of unspeakable evil as well as good over the years. And with the current 'War on Terrorism', it is looking like you are really trying to tip the scales..... (This is not to say that the British were any better of course - they have been just as evilly imperialistic, but two wrongs and all....)

You all seem to forget that the U.S. help didn't come just in terms of direct involvement of troops.

The supplies and weapons sent by the U.S. to Britain in Russia was indispensible. Without them, the war wasn't going to go anywhere for the Allies.

	04-07-2002 23:00									#28
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quote: lets pretend for a moment that the US never helped. Russia would probably have lost stalingrade or Japan would have invaded Russia.

You don't know much about that period in history, do you?

	04-07-2002 23:08									#29
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Leave history to historians rogan, because you obviously don't know jack about it, and I'm not talking "US Flag waving" here.

quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Bullsh!t! On a number of levels. First of all, after the Battle of Britain, Germany had basically given up on invading the UK.

Until The soviets were defeated, as hitler clearly stated in his directive for Barbarrossa.
After Russia he fully intended to deal with Britain.

quote: Secondly, Britain would have had no problem negotiating a peace treaty with the Nazis, if it had wanted to, which would have left Britain with a lot more of its empire than the eventual outcome of the war did.

Not so long as Churchill was PM, and he wasn't getting booted.
He only lost an election when the war was virtually over.

quote: Finally, it was the Russians who defeated the Germans - not the US.

I have posted about this many times, but in 42 nearly 90% of Russia's material needs were met by the west, mostly USA.
It drops dramatically each year till by 45 it's less then 1%, but in the critical early days it kept them alive.
In other words, you don't know what your talking about, as usual.

quote: I think it is probably true that the world would have been a worse place today without the influence of the US. But it is a closer call than you would imagine - the US has been a force of unspeakable evil as well as good over the years.

I'll put this country's history up vs Britain's any day, and you will lose.
In a landslide.

quote: And with the current 'War on Terrorism', it is looking like you are really trying to tip the scales.....

Because of MTV generation types like you, who must have instant results, we see non-sense about losing the war on terror.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but how many big terror attacks have there been since 9/11?
ZERO is the answer.

quote: (This is not to say that the British were any better of course - they have been just as evilly imperialistic, but two wrongs and all....)

No, you have been FAR worse.
It's like the pot calling the kettle black.

Your probaly the only guy that could manage to annoy me today, I knew you wouldn't fail.

	04-07-2002 23:11									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 It's like the pot calling the kettle black. Your probaly the only guy that could manage to annoy me today, I knew you wouldn't fail.

Did you type that with a straight face?