05-07-2002 01:53									#61
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Perhaps you could explain all of the historical references to an alliance between Finland and Nazi Germany.

	05-07-2002 01:54									#62
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Which historical references in particular?

	05-07-2002 01:55									#63
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i don't know what history books you read. Maybe you could show me those references.

	05-07-2002 01:56									#64
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dinodoc, this is a subject all finns have particular knowledge so choose your words wisely .

	05-07-2002 02:06									#65
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Did anyone happen to read farther down the article...about the role of Radio Free Europe, the carrot and stick approach to the Jaruzelski government, and aid to the post-Communist government of Poland? And many of the older American posters here had a role in this because they paid for it. Nobody's asking for gratitude, just recognizing the facts.

	05-07-2002 02:07									#66
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the only link between finland and nazi germany was that they were both fighting the russians for a period of time. that's it.

	05-07-2002 02:07									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko And did you know that Finnish Jews willingly fought side by side with their fellow Finns?

Yes, I knew that. Prime Minister Rangell even described them as being decent people and loyal citizens whose sons fought in the army like other Finns in response to Himmler's demand that they be turned over.

Pekka: Maybe you could show me those references.

If you wish:

quote: In World War II, Finland was allied with Germany, and Finnish troops fought against The Soviet Union in an effort to regain the territory it lost in The Russo-Finnish War of 1939-1940.

www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/4952/Scandinavia.htm

It goes on from there to describe the meritorious service Finnish Jews provided in the fight against the Soviets.

quote: In 1939, Nazi-Germany and the Soviet Union suddenly announced an non-aggression pact. In the secret clauses of the pact the two countries agreed on the spheres of influence in Eastern Europe in case of war. The Soviet Union was to have a free hand in Finland and the Baltic countries. A few months later, after German attack on Poland, the Soviet Union attacked Finland. The Winter War begun. Despite of overwhelming superiority, Russians were unable to occupy Finland. The peace of 1940, however, was short lived. The Soviet pressure and Finnish desire of revenge made Finland to ally with Germany. When Hitler attacked to the Soviet Union in 1941, Finland launched war against the Soviet Union (the Continuation War 1941 - 44).

www.cc.jyu.fi/~jonmak/Finland.html

I can look for more if you wish.

	05-07-2002 02:09									#68
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besides Finland, why should Spain thank the US for WW2? Or Portugal? Or Swiss? Or Sweden? Or Ireland?

Not all of Europe was at war you know.

	05-07-2002 02:10									#69
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It's absurd blaming the Nazi rise to power on the USA. First off, the harsh provisions of Versailles that angered Germany so much were forced there by the Europeans. Yet even still peace would have been possible under the Versailles framework had they been willing to enforece Versailles' provisions.

Argue as much what would have happened with no USA in WWII, but if the USA did not interevene, either the Nazis or the Soviets would have ended up occupying the continent of Europe. Britain would have not have been able to win by itself. Had the Nazis won, with the resources of Europe they would definitely have been able to defeat Britain. Had the Soviets won and taken Europe, they would have also been able to eventually get Britain and they would likely be able to spread communism worldwide. Either way Europe gets screwed over with no USA.

As far as WWI, USA troops were there during Germany's last charge as they repelled the German troops trying to take Paris. It's not clear who would have eventually won without USA in WWI, but it would be very likely it would mean even more lost European lives.

Another great contribution the USA has given to the world is that we served as a model of a democratic state. The USA showed that democracy was not merely the airy idea of enlightenment intellectuals, that it could be practically applied to a free state. The American revolution helped inspired the French revolution and would be an inspiration to democratic since in fighting aristocratic power.

	05-07-2002 02:12									#70
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Dino, Germany was the only country really willing to help Finland against the Soviets, for obvious reasons. It was either them or become a Soviet satellite along with the other small East European countries.
We never really toed the Nazi line, for instance never advancing far enough to cut supplies to Leningrad, or destroying the Murmansk railway, even though the supplies brought that way were used against us. In fact it was the US who wanted us to let the Lend-Lease through.
Then there was the '43-'44 affair, where we cheated the Germans out of crucial war materiel so we could affor to finally negotiate a separate peace with the Soviets.

	05-07-2002 02:14									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus besides Finland, why should Spain thank the US for WW2? Or Portugal? Or Swiss? Or Sweden? Or Ireland? Not all of Europe was at war you know.

I think many Germans hate the US. If it weren't for them they would still dominate the continent with an iron fist.

	05-07-2002 02:14									#72
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quote: Another great contribution the USA has given to the world is that we served as a model of a democratic state. The USA showed that democracy was not merely the airy idea of enlightenment intellectuals, that it could be practically applied to a free state. The American revolution helped inspired the French revolution and would be an inspiration to democratic since in fighting aristocratic power.

Greece had the first Democracy. And Holland made great strides towards a functional republic and free state a century or two before the USA.

Also, the oldest parliament in the world is seated in Iceland.

	05-07-2002 02:14									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus besides Finland, why should Spain thank the US for WW2?

Americans fought in the Spanish Civil War.

	05-07-2002 02:16									#74
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For or against Franco?

	05-07-2002 02:16									#75
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Nationals of dozens of nations fought in that war. And the Americans were present in only very limited numbers, and didn't win the war.

	05-07-2002 02:18									#76
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I'm not saying America is responsible for the rise of power of Hitler. That is the fault of german politicians.

But think about it. What if Germany had taken large areas of france and "won" WW1?

	05-07-2002 02:18									#77
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And I'll add that the alliance we had was purely militarily and historically (ie. WW1 vintage) motivated.
The ideological separation is usually the reason why Finns don't prefer the term alliance.

	05-07-2002 02:20									#78
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Americans fought in the Spanish Civil War.

So did Frenchs, Russians, Englishs, and countless others from countless other nations.

	05-07-2002 02:20									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko We never really toed the Nazi line

I never said that you did or how well you carried your end of the deal. I mearly stated that an alliance did exist and the Finish contingent started to get huffy like I had shamed them or something.

quote: Then there was the '43-'44 affair, where we cheated the Germans out of crucial war materiel so we could affor to finally negotiate a separate peace with the Soviets.

For all intents and purposes the alliance between you two ended in 1943 when Finland started secret peace negotiations with the Soviets. So that really doesn't suprise me.

	05-07-2002 02:21									#80
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To anybody outside the US that want's to wish us well on the anniversary of the birth of our nation... thanks..

To those that want to abuse us... fine too, your "opinion" and you are welcome to it, that's what free speech is all about... I just don't have to listen to it today... tommorrow is soon enough...

So Happy Birthday USA... And thanks to all the countries that have ever helped the USA in the past, and those that will in the future. We wouldn't be what we are without you!

	05-07-2002 02:22									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil So did Frenchs, Russians, Englishs, and countless others from countless other nations.

He didn't ask about why Spain should thank Frenchs, Russians, Englishs, and countless others from countless other nations.

	05-07-2002 02:23									#82
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dinodoc, we were not allied. we were cobelligrent.

	05-07-2002 02:24									#83
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Merci Ming. You're a credit to your nation.

And happy b-day to your country.

Or the 13 original states at least. Does Texas has it's own b-day, considering it was once an independent country?

	05-07-2002 02:25									#84
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hehe, this reminds me of school. everyone has thier little group that hates everyone elses group until the big game rolls around, then the entire school is on the same side.

	05-07-2002 02:26									#85
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Dino, I'm just educating your trollified ass. Consider it a blessing.

Edit: and look at my previous post for an explanation on the huffiness.

	05-07-2002 02:27									#86
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quote: He didn't ask about why Spain should thank Frenchs, Russians, Englishs, and countless others from countless other nations.

The Spanish shouldn't thank anyone really. It wasn't the US who got rid of Franco. In fact, it supported Franco at various instances.

My point is, that "Europe" as a whole shouldn't thank the US for fighting in WW2. A lot of European nations weren't in the war, or didn't benifit from US involvement (Like many eastern european nations, who simply traded one group of oppressors for another due to the war).

	05-07-2002 02:27									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Does Texas has it's own b-day, considering it was once an independent country?

With Texans, you never know. They take pride in everything Texan... But then again, that's the spirit of the people there, and you can't fault them for that.

Thanks for the kind words... On a day like today, I just want to be with family and friends (and I have a whole house full of them.. and my cig breaks give me an excuse to see what is happening in the world of Apolyton)

Peace folks... may we never see another WW again.

	05-07-2002 02:28									#88
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Considering the fact that you were allied with the Nazis, I would agree with you.

They weren't allied with the Nazi's. It wasd more of a " an enemy of my friend is my enemy deal".

Russia invade Finland. Germans weren't even there. I read quite a bit about this battle when I was younger, and I have to admit that the Finns fought brilliantly for quite a while.

	05-07-2002 02:29									#89
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You bet.

Have a nice day.

	05-07-2002 02:32									#90
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GROUP HUG!!!



Personally, I'm just happy when I get to yak about Finland to furriners.