08-07-2002 06:33									#31
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Lincoln, it doesn't have to be private property. The goverment can deny an art exhibit on public property, as well.

Where is the line between art and free speech? I would have to say that images which have nothing to do with the question should be considered art.

If I protest the fur industry and have images of animals being skinned alive, that would be free speech. If I protest the fur industry and have images of a concentration camp, it would be art...


Of course, you could claim that the protestors are trying to advance their view that dead tissue looks revolting, and they just happen to use aborted fetuses instead of cancer lumps etc. That is what their posters should say then, right?

	08-07-2002 06:34									#32
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quote: The fetus is 21 weeks old. The picture is of an operation that took place while the baby was still in the womb. During the operation the little fella reached out and held on to the surgeon's finger.

And this quality camera and lighting were there just in case it happens?

	08-07-2002 06:35									#33
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Or a school, for that matter. No one requires schools to allow people to put up pictures of genitalia, for example.

	08-07-2002 06:37									#34
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Lincoln, it doesn't have to be private property. The goverment can deny an art exhibit on public property, as well. Where is the line between art and free speech? I would have to say that images which have nothing to do with the question should be considered art. If I protest the fur industry and have images of animals being skinned alive, that would be free speech. If I protest the fur industry and have images of a concentration camp, it would be art... Of course, you could claim that the protestors are trying to advance their view that dead tissue looks revolting, and they just happen to use aborted fetuses instead of cancer lumps etc. That is what their posters should say then, right?

It's not art to those who think differently then you

is it art to show pictures of the palestinians being in conflict with the Israelis?

no it is trying to get a point across

so is this

show some intellegience

Jon Miller

	08-07-2002 06:37									#35
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Sava,

	08-07-2002 06:38									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I think those people are fanatics, but their protests are protected. Instead of sending them to jail, I'd much rather pee in water balloons and throw them at the protesters.

perhaps a counter protest would be more appropriate than acting like a child

Jon Miller

	08-07-2002 06:38									#37
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palestinians are undoubtly involved in the conflict.

what merit does the visual appearance of dead tissue have?

	08-07-2002 06:39									#38
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the same merit a picture of a dead palestinian would have

Jon Miller

	08-07-2002 06:40									#39
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*re-phrased*

what point is it that they want to get across?

	08-07-2002 06:41									#40
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A dead palestinian would show that palestinians are being killed in the conflict, and that palestinians are people just as you and me (which many pro-israelis seems to have forgotten). Thus it is a valid point.

	08-07-2002 06:41									#41
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that someone who once was living is now dead

the same point a picture of a dead palestinian would have

Jon miller

	08-07-2002 06:43									#42
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But a fetus isn't someone, hence the lack of value.

So the only point that remains is that dead tissue can look gross. Wow... Would never have guessed that...

	08-07-2002 06:44									#43
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a dead baby would show that babies are being murdered before their birth, and that babies are people jsut like you and me (whiich many, including it seems you, have forgotten). Thus it makes a valid point.

But what business is it of yours to determine whether it makes a valid point or not, doesn't free speech imply that they have the right to speech and others have the right to form an oppinion (in other words, to determine if it has a valid point)?

Jon Miller

	08-07-2002 06:44									#44
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu But a fetus isn't someone, hence the lack of value. So the only point that remains is that dead tissue can look gross. Wow... Would never have guessed that...

but you are presupposing your position

you are saying, you can have free speech, but only if you agree with me

this is not free speech, this is dictatorship

Jon Miller

	08-07-2002 06:45									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov quote: The fetus is 21 weeks old. The picture is of an operation that took place while the baby was still in the womb. During the operation the little fella reached out and held on to the surgeon's finger. And this quality camera and lighting were there just in case it happens?

Many operations are filmed for training purposes. This one especially because it was a unique operation.

	08-07-2002 06:47									#46
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Another interesting point, however, is "should we protect the rights of people who wants to take those rights away?" With the current climate of refusing rights to suspected terrorists, should people who want to impose their opinion on others be protected? Hate speech is already forbidden, should anti-abortion protests be included under the same category?

	08-07-2002 06:47									#47
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I think he is trying to say that it is okay to protest if you agree with him.

	08-07-2002 06:49									#48
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Another interesting point, however, is "should we protect the rights of people who wants to take those rights away?" With the current climate of refusing rights to suspected terrorists, should people who want to impose their opinion on others be protected? Hate speech is already forbidden, should anti-abortion protests be included under the same category?

what if people had said that of MLK?

and I and others do not want to take rights away, we want to give rights (to a class that has no rights, the last completely screwed class, the unborn)

Jon Miller

	08-07-2002 06:50									#49
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quote: but you are presupposing your position

The law says that a fetus is tissue. If not, abortion would be murder.

Science says the same thing.

So if you want your protest to be considered 'free speech', you should stick to arguments with scientific merit. Your arguments in the other thread, while flawed, does have scientific merit. They would be considered free speech.

But claiming that abortion is wrong because dead tissue looks gross is not.

	08-07-2002 06:51									#50
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so you should not be protected CyberGnu?

since you are trying to impose your oppinions on me?

you are trying to make it so that I and others cannot even talk in public places



Jon Miller

(edit got my p's and q's mixed up)

	08-07-2002 06:51									#51
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MLK?

	08-07-2002 06:52									#52
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu The law says that a fetus is tissue. If not, abortion would be murder. Science says the same thing. So if you want your protest to be considered 'free speech', you should stick to arguments with scientific merit. Your arguments in the other thread, while flawed, does have scientific merit. They would be considered free speech. But claiming that abortion is wrong because dead tissue looks gross is not.

people use emotion in arguments all the time

you and others do with pictures of palestinians

while it is not the most scientific arguing tactic it is still valid

and while I and others might look at the science, many on both sides go for the emotional arguments

all other protests can use it, why can't the abortion protesters

Jon Miller

	08-07-2002 06:53									#53
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Now you're committing a hate crime Jon...

	08-07-2002 06:53									#54
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu MLK?

Martin Luther King Jr

Jon Miller

	08-07-2002 06:55									#55
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quote: and I and others do not want to take rights away, we want to give rights (to a class that has no rights, the last completely screwed class, the unborn)

But (pre-sentient) unborn aren't people, and cannot have rights. If you give them rights, you would have to give the same to cancer lumps, gallstones and bacterial infections.

"could I have some antibiotics?"

"I'm sorry, sir, that would be murder"


So you are trying to impose your view that removing tissue should be illegal on other people.

	08-07-2002 06:57									#56
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but the whole argument is over whether the unborn are people or not

you say they are not, and say that I can't argue my point because they are not (for varying reasons (mostly which are obviously logical falacies, some are more serious))

do you see the problem with this?

Jon Miller

	08-07-2002 06:57									#57
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quote: so you should not be protected CyberGnu? since you are trying to impose your oppinions on me? you are trying to make it so that I and others cannot even talk in public places

quote: I think he is trying to say that it is okay to protest if you agree with him.

No, I'm saying that imposing a view based on wishful thinking, lack of knowledge or religious dogma should be illegal. Racism and anti-abortionism fulfill the first two and in many cases all three of those clauses.

	08-07-2002 07:00									#58
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so basically, arguing for a view should be wrong because you think that that view is wrong

got it dictator CyberGnu

jon Miller

	08-07-2002 07:01									#59
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Jon, you have full rights to argue your views, as long as they have some kind of logical backing.

I repeat: 'abortion is wrong because dead tissue looks gross' is not a logical statement.

'abortion is wrong because a fetus is a human being' would be a logical statement, although based on lack of knowledge.

So you are more than welcome to display the second message, and should be prepared to be asked to understand the issues involved.

	08-07-2002 07:02									#60
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...

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Question for the legally informed, "Can the group still press its lawsuit or has the school's change in policy effectively cut the legs out from under them?"