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Should these people be allowed to protest? (Time out:0 days after 08-07-2002, 05:33)
Yes, if they are kept in an out of the way place
Yes, in full view with the rest of the protests
No, these people are fanatics
No, free speech does not include this type of stuff
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Lincoln is offline Lincoln
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TN
Jul 2000
time: 05:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 05:28 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
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Free speech and dead babies Put an end to popups!

June 27, 2002, 4:49PM- Houston Chronicle

Despite ruling, UH won't allow abortion photos in Butler Plaza

Fueling the controversy over free speech restrictions on campus, University of Houston officials say they will not follow a judge's order and allow an anti-abortion group to display large pictures of dead fetuses where it wants.

U.S. District Judge Ewing Werlein Jr. ruled last week that UH must allow the student group Pro-Life Cougars to put up the controversial display this fall in the heavily trafficked Butler Plaza, near UH's Hoffman Hall and M.D. Anderson Library. The judge concluded that UH violated the group's First Amendment rights to free speech and 14th Amendment rights to equal protection last October by not permitting the display in the plaza.

UH spokesman Mike Cinelli said Werlein's order is moot because it only applies to a previous university policy on regulating speech. He said a new policy enacted Tuesday will allow UH to restrict the proposed display to one of four so-called "free speech zones" in less visible areas of campus.

"This whole issue is really a case about where free speech will occur as opposed to the ability to express free speech," Cinelli said.

Free speech zones were created in the 1960s to try to control potentially disruptive speech in the wake of massive student activism. Universities have sometimes been criticized for using such zones to banish potentially offensive speech to lightly trafficked areas.

While Werlein did not specifically address the new policy, Benjamin C. Bull, a Scottsdale, Ariz., attorney who represents Pro-Life Cougars, said Werlein's statements regarding First Amendment law are broad and "universal in application."

"The court has given the university a road map on how to enact a policy that passes constitutional muster, and they have burned it before our very eyes," Bull said.

Bull, who works for the conservative Christian nonprofit group Alliance Defense Fund, said the university is trying to circumvent the judge's order by citing the new policy.

Bull maintained the university is trying to stop the display from going up in Butler Plaza solely because of the content, which would be unconstitutional.

The previous UH policy listed the same four free speech zones as the new policy, and last fall UH offered Pro-Life Cougars the chance to erect the display in one of these areas.

Werlein said the old policy was unconstitutional because it gave UH dean of students William F. Munson "unfettered discretion" in determining what events could be at Butler Plaza.

The new policy will pass constitutional muster because it has specific guidelines on regulating the time, place and manner of free speech, Cinelli said. UH officials have denied the previous policy was unconstitutional.

Some experts say anti-abortion groups have been at the forefront of testing the constitutionality of free speech zones. The proposed UH exhibit, which is about 15 feet tall, travels around the country and is funded by the anti-abortion group Justice for All, based in Wichita, Kan.

The same exhibit was allowed on Butler Plaza in March 2001, leading to student protests and partly causing UH to form a committee that summer to re-evaluate its free speech policy, Cinelli said.

The exhibit also caused the University of Texas and Baylor University to re-examine their free speech policies after controversies erupted in those universities last year.

"The photos used by anti-abortion group are aggressive, and they're also aggressive in their demands for access as they go from campus to campus," said UT law professor Doug Laycock, who heads a UT committee drafting a new policy.

James Spencer, general counsel for Justice for All, said after touring Texas universities last year, the exhibit went to Colorado State University, the University of New Mexico and the University of California at Los Angeles. He said the exhibit has generated student protests and disagreements with administrators at many schools, but UH is the only university that has been sued over its restrictions.

Some students on campus during the summer session had mixed reactions to Werlein's ruling.

Brooke Skeen, a senior from Pasadena majoring in English literature and minoring in women's studies, said it was "ridiculous."

"The student body was outraged" about the Spring 2001 display, she said.

Michael Rodriguez, a senior majoring in anthropology, disagreed. "This is supposed to be a place of higher education that supports the sharing of ideas," Rodriguez said. "They can't say to someone `go to a corner and stay where nobody will see you.' "

Werlein said because Butler Plaza has historically been used as an area for student expression, it constitutes a "public forum." Because of this, the judge said, restrictions on the use of Butler Plaza must be narrowly tailored.

Since the proposed display for the fall of 2001 was rejected, Munson has not allowed any student speech at Butler Plaza, saying it could all be disruptive.

Werlein said the decision was made "rather astonishingly" because it led to the removal of a Christmas tree from the plaza and prevented UH cheerleaders from practicing there. Munson even testified he would not allow "the silent expression of a single student on the plaza holding a small sign proclaiming "The World is a Beautiful Place."

-------------------------------------

Should only politically correct protests be allowed on campus or should these types of protests only be allowed in a corner somewhere where no one is likely see them?

Asher is offline Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 05:34 Visit Asher's homepage!
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You know, Lincoln, God has a special place in his heart for you and your efforts of ChristianTrolling.

Vesayen is offline Vesayen
Chieftain

Mar 2002
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  Old Post 08-07-2002 05:39
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Not only Christians know abortion is murder, Jews know it too .

(If the mothers life is in danger abortion is permited in Judaism.....otherwise keep your legs closed you fing slut)

Asher is offline Asher
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Nov 1999
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  Old Post 08-07-2002 05:40 Visit Asher's homepage!
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What about rape?

Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
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The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
time: 05:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 05:43
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Tired of ads?

*shakes head*

Let's not go there again...

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
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Jul 2000
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  Old Post 08-07-2002 05:46 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
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This isn't supposed to be another abortion debat thread. The issue is about the right to protest. What are the limits? Anyway, I thought I would post this cute little picture:

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:20
  Old Post 08-07-2002 05:48
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Question for the legally informed, "Can the group still press its lawsuit or has the school's change in policy effectively cut the legs out from under them?"

Asher is offline Asher
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  Old Post 08-07-2002 05:48 Visit Asher's homepage!
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Likewise, I believe it's okay for the radical gay rights groups to protest at Churches holding up graphic images of gay sex.

Where DO we draw the line, Lincoln? When it interferes with YOUR values only?

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
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  Old Post 08-07-2002 05:50 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
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It sounds like they are now restricting protests for everyone but I would suspect that the judge will see through the motive.

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
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  Old Post 08-07-2002 05:51 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
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This is a public university. You cannot compare this with what goes on in purely private institutions like churches or gay clubs.

Vesayen is offline Vesayen
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Mar 2002
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  Old Post 08-07-2002 05:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln
This isn't supposed to be another abortion debat thread. The issue is about the right to protest. What are the limits? Anyway, I thought I would post this cute little picture:


Is that the actual size of the baby, is it a fake Photo? Is it dead(stillborn)? That picture is real?

Asher is offline Asher
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quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln
This is a public university. You cannot compare this with what goes on in purely private institutions like churches or gay clubs.

It would not take place on private property, but on the streets outside.

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 08-07-2002 05:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln
This is a public university. You cannot compare this with what goes on in purely private institutions like churches or gay clubs.


How is a church or gay club anymore private then a university?

Vesayen is offline Vesayen
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Mar 2002
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  Old Post 08-07-2002 05:55
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Almost every university in the U.S. gets some goverment funding, and to get that funding it has to meet certain goverment regulations, so in effect very few schools in the U.S. are really private.

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
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  Old Post 08-07-2002 05:56 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Vesayen


Is that the actual size of the baby, is it a fake Photo? Is it dead(stillborn)? That picture is real?


I am pretty sure it is a normal live baby but I am not sure. A friend of mine had a healthy baby that was almost this small, and that was several weeks after delivery that I saw her.

Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
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The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
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  Old Post 08-07-2002 05:56
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

It could be a normal people with a man with freakishly large hands

Vesayen is offline Vesayen
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Mar 2002
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  Old Post 08-07-2002 05:58
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Babies that small are usually premature and in incubators....I greatly doubt it would be healthy for a child THAT SMALL to be held....the pictures fake.

Anodyne is offline Anodyne
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Jan 2001
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  Old Post 08-07-2002 05:59
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I'd say the man has just really big hands...

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
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  Old Post 08-07-2002 06:02 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
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The baby I saw could easily fit in a shoe box but we better let Dr Strangelove decide. Is there a doctor in the house??

Vesayen is offline Vesayen
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Mar 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by Ade
I'd say the man has just really big hands...


And you know what they say about guys with huge hands who hold naked babies, petaphile . The site thats from is a church in California.....California churches now support Petaphilia?

quote:

The baby I saw could easily fit in a shoe box but we better let Dr Strangelove decide. Is there a doctor in the house??


Several of those could fit into a shoe box....

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
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  Old Post 08-07-2002 06:07 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
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I do have some information on the following picture. The fetus is 21 weeks old. The picture is of an operation that took place while the baby was still in the womb. During the operation the little fella reached out and held on to the surgeon's finger. Actuall when the surgeon saw the little hand he reached out his finger and the baby grabbed on to it.

Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
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The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
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  Old Post 08-07-2002 06:08
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Petaphile? Is that someone with the love of the number one quadrillion?

Besides, I have already mentioned the 'man with big hands' theory, so stop copying and acknowledge me and pay me royalties and stuff like that

Asher is offline Asher
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  Old Post 08-07-2002 06:08 Visit Asher's homepage!
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Obviously never taken a biology course, eh Lincoln?

CyberGnu is offline CyberGnu
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Apr 1999
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  Old Post 08-07-2002 06:21 Visit CyberGnu's homepage!
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well, since the visual appearance of dead tissue dowsn't have any scientific value, this display would be considered art. Any owner of a property has the right to deny art displayes on his/her land.

No free speech is involved... If these people want to display their posters, let them rent a gallery just like any other artist.

CyberGnu is offline CyberGnu
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PH, it should be spelled PETAphilia, and is the love of people who love animals.

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
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  Old Post 08-07-2002 06:25 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
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Protests don't need to have "scientific value". But you are right that private property owners can restrict this if they want.

Jon Miller is offline Jon Miller
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May 1999
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  Old Post 08-07-2002 06:26
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
well, since the visual appearance of dead tissue dowsn't have any scientific value, this display would be considered art. Any owner of a property has the right to deny art displayes on his/her land.

No free speech is involved... If these people want to display their posters, let them rent a gallery just like any other artist.


are you seriously saying this??

you can't be that stupid

Jon Miller

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
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  Old Post 08-07-2002 06:27 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
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I don't think that Cyber knows that this is a publicly funded university.

Jon Miller is offline Jon Miller
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May 1999
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  Old Post 08-07-2002 06:28
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Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

oh

Jon Miller

Sava is offline Sava
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Mar 2001
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  Old Post 08-07-2002 06:32
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I think those people are fanatics, but their protests are protected. Instead of sending them to jail, I'd much rather pee in water balloons and throw them at the protesters.

 
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